No, lawyers. Because you obviously don't know about teacher's unions, I will tell you that they spend time trying to reduce classroom sizes, make sure students have the resources necessary for proper education, and yes, putting measures in place to protect the workers they represent. The fact that the indisputably extremely small number of teachers who abuse the system get all of the press does not make all teachers or unions bad. My teacher wife belongs to a teachers union and in no way condones the actions of these INDIVIDUALS ever. There is no REAL support for bad teachers among other teachers, especially given the amount of blame they've been given for everything from budgets to crumbling facilities. Teachers hate bad teachers. Get that in your head and try to be intelligent about this.

Teachers hate bad teachers.

If that's true, why do their unions protect obvious malfeasance and incompetence? Why don't the teachers who hate the bad ones do something? Why don't they vote out the union leaders that don't do what they want?

Claims that teachers only want good teachers somehow ring hollow because there is no action to support their claims.

Teacher just doing what Teachers are taught to do ! Covering their Collective asses !

We truly are a bunch of Mindless suckers. We deserve what we get ! Look at The White House !

And yet another reason for people to hate unions. How can they expect our support when they continue to shoot themselves in the foot?

"If that's true, why do their unions protect obvious malfeasance and incompetence? Why don't the teachers who hate the bad ones do something? Why don't they vote out the union leaders that don't do what they want?"

Where is your proof of protecting obvious malfeasance and incompetence? This story? Or did you hear it from a friend? How about your claim that teachers don't do anything about bad teachers? Want to back that up with facts? Good luck. Which union leaders are you speaking of? The people elected by the membership to represent them? Heaven forbid a teacher have the right to presumed innocence because they belong to a union and have safeguards in place to keep them from being politically or personally attacked and run out of a job.

If you want to blanket teachers and teachers unions as all bad because just like the rest of America there are bad people, then that just show how ridiculously closed minded and simple you really are.

Where's your proof David that they don't. Back up anything you just said with facts.

Right, so let's abolish unions and give all the power to the employer. Though I agree that if these guys are convicted of the crimes they're accused of, they should lose out on any/all benefits that were previously owed to them, you can't make blanket statements condemning unions.

If every company had a union, then people wouldn't get fired for being too black, being a woman (or a man), not kissing enough ass, or just generally being wrongfully discriminated against.

Years ago, I was an employee of a grocery store (and was a member of their union as well) and was fired for messing up and taking an extended break. I went to the union, but because it was for a justifiable reason, there was nothing they could do for me. It was my fault, and the union knew it as well.

Unions protect against discrimination. Without them, employers can do whatever they want, whenever they want, for whatever reason they want at the expense of their employees. They're not these all encompassing, evil forces that the republicans make them out to be.

The only reason why republican politicians want them gone is because they're big business, and are always actively trying to extend the gap between the rich and the working class so that they can line their OWN pockets(and the pockets of their campaign contributors). People support this ridiculous garbage because of the propoganda that's spewed from these people in high places. They could care less about their constituents or the middle class. Their only objective is to trick them into voting for them so that they can pursue their own agenda. How people don't see this is beyond me.

That being said, I hope these child-fondlers get a harsh criminal sentence and lose everything they've got (pensions included) if they're proven guilty in the court of law.

My proof is seeing it with my own eyes. I live with a teacher, volunteer in my children's school, and take part in my community. I see it first hand, not through websites and second and third hand "stories" from those with clearly anti-union bias. Get involved and know rather than being so quick to blame. I've also belonged to two unions that provided me with a wage I could support my family with, fair benefits, and a safe environment to work in, including knowing I won't be fired for reasons not related to my performance. Those who didn't perform were ALWAYS dealt with fairly and removed. It's simple. First hand experience rather than baseless accusations.

Don't misinterpret this as excusing anyone who deserves to be removed from a job, it isn't. Outrage isn't exclusive to those not in a union. That's the reality.

And yet, parents make no complaint over corrupt bankers receiving huge retirement and severance packages.......

And nooooo Chuckie, Walker did change the law to end this nonsense. He snuck the law through the back door in a modern day palace coup. His main purpose was to remove money from the Democratic opposition, while at the same time working to loosen restrictions on his Republican supporters.

Like most conservative agenda's is much more about power and control than it is about good government.

Yea, unions are wonderful :(

Pay teachers decent (the best) salaries for this most important of all jobs. Stop foreign aid until the US is solvent and utilize that to pay teachers decent salaries. Once this program takes effect than any and all misconduct which ends up in criminal convictions becomes cause and reason for losing all benefits for life. Only minimum wage retirement allowed. There should always be consequences.

David,

Well said, those who bash unions are apparently against things like decent working hours, medical benefits, work place safety, retirement plans, vacations, holidays,...all things at least partially brought about through individuals right to organize.

Unions were born out of the mining industry where men and boys commonly went to work and died. Profit was key and the poor miners were no more than sacrificial lambs for the mine owners.

Yes, unions have sometimes been their own worst enemy, it is one thing to unite for the common good of the worker but it is a BIG negative when the union interferes with a companies right to discipline or dismiss unproductive employees. Too often unions have intervened on behalf of lazy, dishonest employees and this DOES build a foundation upon which rests the hatred of the anti-union block. Unions should be about working conditions, wages, and benefits. Unless an employee is being fired for a completely unjustified reason, the unions should stay out of the matter.

In an ideal world, businesses would recognize their employees role in helping them succeed and strive to provide good wages, benefits, vacations, sick leave, holidays, retirement programs... businesses must focus on maximizing profits and increasing the value of their stock, but not so long ago that didn't mean treating the people they hired like slaves. BTW, once a company, started in America, is big enough, they even turn their backs on the lousy pay and benefits they provide American workers and move their operations over seas where they can abuse populations that think working for a dollar a day is big money.

Bust unions, celebrate efforts to end collective bargaining, which by the way, by the very nature of what it requires, is as anti-American/anti-freedom, as you can get, and reap, lower pay, no benefits, no work place safety, and a work to till you die and hurry up about it mentality. After all, the American dream is all but dead, lets blame it on unions, there couldn't be any other reason!

Teachers generally have little to no control over bad teachers. Blame administrators. They hire them, they evaluate them (or don't) and they often fail to follow through. Unions do what unions do. They negotiate pensions and contracts with their districts. Blame the legislature for protecting pensions. As a teacher I had absolutely no say in my pension and the rules it operated by and I doubt that other teachers in other states had it much different unless they worked for the union on committees dealing with contracts and pension matters. I learned not to love the union in my state, but understood they were a necessary evil when dealing with administrators and getting paid something other than menial wages.

I forgot to mention that they also guarantee somewhat competitive wages. If it weren't for unions, there may not be any minimum wage, and we'd see 13 year olds working in factories for crumbs a day a la China. But as long as it's a jerrrb, right?

First of all, pensions laws are not decided by Unions, they are regulated by state and federal labor laws. After an employee qualifies or is vested into a pension program the value of his or her pension builds and belongs to that employee. It is protected and can't be taken away. This keeps employers from firing older employees before they retire and stealing their retirement accounts! Do you believe they should have their 401K and savings taken away also? It's the SAME thing!

Adam, there is a huge difference between working for a private company ( grocery store, steel plant, packinghouse, coal mine, etc) and being represented by a union and being a public school teacher and being represented by a union.

PUBLIC WORKERS DON'T NEED UNIONS!!!! FDR was opposed to public worker unions. Federal Public workers are not unionized. The big bad employer of a school teacher is you and me, it is not Daddy Warbucks. So why the average Joe makes 35 or 40 grand a year, he is paying teachers twice that much, because they belong to a union.

There may be a legitimate need for unions in some industries. It is the employees right to organize or not organize as they wish. There is no legitimate need for public school teacher ( who are degreed professionals, allegedly) unions. Unions protect the lazy and unmotivated. Scott Walker was absolutely right.

Gary, I disagree with your "lazy" assessment. Unions protect against discrimination. That lazy excuse is such a scapegoat, it's ridiculous.

I do agree that on some occasions, unions do have too much power(especially when they're lobbying in politics), and it does need to be addressed to a certain extent. But to abolish them altogether would be completely imbecelic.

My questions to you are as follows: Who is supposed to be paying the teachers? Are we just supposed to leave our children uneducated? Is that what we do? Do we allow ourselves to fall further behind the rest of the world in math and science in favor of "trades" to prove to ourselves that we're 'not lazy?' Do we allow ourselves to descend into idiocracy? What SHOULD we do?

The poor (who are not always lazy as the rich that control media propoganda would have you believe) would have absolutely no voice were it not for unions. The rich can buy a voice and a megaphone to speak through. The poor cannot. You typically only hear one side of the story because of this.

gbull, that is an out right lie. The pension benefits are negotiated by the Teacher Unions, only after that are they protected by state / fed law. And, if this was a "private company" that was as broken as our education system, we would bankrupt this disaster that we spoon feed. In a private bankruptcy you lose part of your pension, just like my Mom did when her airline went bust.

Gary 420, your right on!

David Skinner, your wife works in a system that is a total failure. She might well be a good teacher, but her union protects the 20% who stink, with the wrath of a pit bull. They, the unions, pick teachers over students everyday all day, and you saying not so, does not make it not so. You have also bought the biggest lie in America, that we don't spend enough on education. We spent more than any country but Austria, and we get nothing for that money but more union employee's, while test scores have remained stagnant for 40 years, while the cost per pupil has more than tripled, and the per pupil per employee has been cut in half. Want to get sick to your stomach, just look at the charts of money spend per pupil versus success in the classroom. It will make you gut turn. Unions for "our" employees, not company employees has ruined the education system in America.

what a bunch of crap

99% of the benifits cited above for unions are now federal law. You cant hire 13 year olds, you cant descriminate, pay and benifits are based on the market with a federal minimum wage. If you think you're being treated unfairly you can hire a lawyer. why do you need union?

and govt. unions are the worst, how can you have collective bargining when the employer has nothing to lose? now that the economy is crashing you can all see for yourself how govt. unions dont work. pretty much all states are in the same boat, cant pay for bloated union perks. of course, all the liberal lefties will start their usual mantra " you dont care about the kids, you dont want us to have a decent wage, " etc. etc.

how about the state and federal govt. living within their means and not some utopia dreamed up by the Unions to curry favor from their minions

Get A grip! ... it's not just the unions fault .... the primary cause is government itself...Federal, state , and local ..

Government should in all cases be the checks & balances .. and they fail miserably! No politician for the past sixty years has been willing to take a responsible stand against any united group ..and not just unions! This country has let its jobs disappear overseas because government as a whole didn't hold unions in check on salaries in the 60's and 70's ... had they restrained them responsibly, cost of manufacturing would not have gotten out of hand driving manufacturing overseas ..

Our education system is today a chaotic failure because of the continuous deference given to the educational unions. But you can't blame the unions for doing the best they can for their own .... blame the people that let them ... government & Politicians! ..

We need to revamp our education system entirely! ... Technology has changed what we need to know and how to educate our people ... people learn more from the computer & television, then they learn in schools! Unions are a convenient scapegoat .... collective bargaining has done more for the American people & our economy than any elected government we have had ..

Gary -

Federal Public workers are not unionized.

Wrong. Please feel free to look up the American Federation of Government Employees. afge.com

JCB, having a "private company" in charge of education would be immensely counterproductive to education in this country. A private company's goal is to maximize PROFIT. If there were multiple companies(such as private schools) competing against one another, then only the wealthiest people in the nation would receive good education. It's absolutely absurd that anybody would want private companies to control the state of education in this nation. It just goes to show how easily brainwashed people in this country have become to the words of the wealthiest that control the airwaves.

What we need to do is get rid of No Child Left Behind and reward educators who do a good job, and get rid of auto-perks that give those educators no incentive to do help those that they're educating.

Adam Gallegos

Who is supposed to be paying the teachers?

It is the taxpayers who pay for teachers, unless they work for a private school.

That is the root of the problem with the system.

In a union negotiating with a private company, the employees are negotiating with the employers. This system can work and if it doesn't, it is the fault of both sides not coming up with a workable solution.

Regarding public unions, the employees are negotiating with a politician who is often on the same side since they are often paid for and supported by same unions (as in Illinois). If it is a level playing field, any negotiated increases or contract changes should be with the taxpayers (the real employer) and be subject to a majority vote of the affected population.

Real Life Man

Where's your proof David that they don't. Back up anything you just said with facts.

burden of proof is on the accuser. it's hard to prove a negative.

As I read it, they haven't been found GUILTY of anything yet they want the penalty enforced? Did these people ever bother to read the Constitution? Doing it there way will surely be overturned. Or did they throw out the justice system in that state?

@armurray

Privatizing education is a terrible idea. The problem with a private company is that they're always going to attempt to maximize profits. Always. That's what a company does, and that's what they're supposed to do. Privatizing education would simply mean that the wealthiest, most privileged children would have access to the best education, while the rest would be left to the worst/most corrupt companies.

What you're suggesting may solve the taxpayer/teacher dilemma, but it would only make education as a whole in the U.S. much worse off.

You're right about some unions being in the pockets of some politicians, and thus creating a conflict of interest. However, you're failing to acknowledge the other side of the coin, which is; big business'/companies/corporations are oftentimes in the pocket of the OTHER party's (in our ridiculous two party system) representatives(a la Scott Walker with The Koch Brothers).

Right now, because of the corrupt fight between both sides, the playing field is level. If you take one away, the other will take full advantage.

sighber - read your history. Unions were fueled by communist led movements in the 20's and 30's beginning with the Communist run loggers unionization efforts in the Pacific Northwest and growing with the Socialist romance that unions fostered in the 30's a la folks like Pete Seeger and Woodie Guthrie. True, unions did a tremendous amount of advocacy for wage and labor equality in the 30's-50's and never embraced the communist matra entirely, but there usefullness is null given the Federal laws that have been passed protecting workers rights and labor, and they have morhped into aggressive political organizations run by thugs and thieves. As for teachers today in California, the ONLY reason why this piece of scum pedophile will draw his pension is Union regulations and contracts and a state rife with left-wing ideology. The only thing more vile than organizations demanding a greater wage and benefit package at the expense of the majority for equal work are politicians who thrive off union support like a vampire on blood. People are getting sick of Unions - PERIOD, and the only ones that keep running their mouths supporting unions are those that are IN unions or those that belonged to a Union decades ago. Collective bargaining is a travesty that forces the majority to pay for the excesses of the minority regardless of the societal. If Unions had not driven up wages and dumbed down product line quality, most of the jobs sent overseas would have remained in the US. Enough said.

Privatizing education is a terrible idea.

I'd just like to privatize one class of students for myself. Give me the average 30 student size class, and the average state expenditure per student of approximately $9000.

With that $270,000, I'll get a nice location to hold the class, and hire a genius to teach my 30 kids. At the end of the year, I'll deliver 30 kids that are miles ahead of their public school peers, and I'll have a tidy profit.

Adam,

I agree that education shouldn't be privatized - never suggested it. All 4 of my kids got a great public education - from K though college. With a few exceptions as in the article, teachers are really good, decent people.

I used the example of Illinois as the example. There are no elected Republican officials in the administration at the state. Both the house and senate are owned by the Democratic party. In our state, there is no OTHER party. Income taxes have gone up 60% in one year and the state is still running a deficit because they cannot afford the promises they made to the state union including the teachers unions.

How would education be worse off? Do you think people wouldn't teach because their pensions were less than 100k/year as is often the case in Illinois? To the contrary, I believe that there would be more money available for actual teaching...

One appeal board with ultimate authority over the district’s attempt to fire a teacher is the little known Commissions on Professional Competence. It is made up of an administrative law judge, an educator appointed by the district and another educator appointed by the teacher being fired.

This sounds like the Congressional Ethics Committee.......the Fox guarding the corrupt "elites".

Yep, NYC has a similiar problem. Hundreds of "teachers/administrators" waiting for "panel reviews" or "day in court" who are required to report to a room for 8 hours a day but still receive pay and benefits.

Wait a minute.....Those Unions will say "It is for the KIDS".

Adam, how did you come up with me wanting to "privatize education" is beyond me, I never suggested that, you need to re-read my post. My point was "private companies" can break union pensions by going bankrupt, we can not bankrupt our education system, but I sure wish we could scrap it and start over, because it sure as hell ain't working.

We are producing a generation of near idiots. My sister has taught University in NYC for a long time, and she says today's junior in college has the mindset and skill set of a 12th grader in the 70's, now that is something to worry about. When most high school graduates think Tennessee Williams is a country and western singer, that the Gettysburg Address is where Lincoln lived, and that Martin Luther was a civil rights promoter we are headed for the abyss. We are heading that way for sure, and it has NOTHING to do with money being spent or not spent. That is union lies, nothing more.

If anyone has been convicted, and the key word here is convicted of molesting a child. Yes, they should lose everything. They are lucky to be protected by the law or they would have already lost their lives as well.

From above:

Pay teachers decent (the best) salaries for this most important of all jobs. Stop foreign aid until the US is solvent and utilize that to pay teachers decent salaries.

The US invests more in education than anyone else in the world (including teachers' salaries) and our students are consistently ranked in the 20's as far as academic achievement. Your solution would literally be throwing good money after bad.

Everyone on this thread should watch the documentary, "Waiting for Superman" and see if you still hold the same regard for teachers' unions and our educational system in general.

@Letusreason The hell did I just read?

@armurray I think I see your point, and I somewhat agree. However... I don't quite grasp your point at the same time. I don't know of any educator save from a few professors that make 100k a year. You're insane if you think educators make that kind of money. Also, I don't know enough about Illinois to make a valid rebuttal. I do believe that we shouldn't be spending more than we can afford, but if you're cutting into the deficit, that's the point of increasing revenue. You didn't specify whether or not that was happening; just that your state is still "running a deficit."

@JCB I agree that we need a complete overhaul of the education system because it "am not" working as well as it should be. You seem to be stressing that our children should know who historical figures are. Personally, I feel like the emphasis should be on math and science, as it's been proven that the knowledge acquired in those areas increase the level of reasoning and logic in people. Overally, I agree with your last post.

Is anyone really surprised by this ???

Of course these pedophiles will keep their pensions. In my state, we've had upper level state bureaucrats stealing money or taking payoffs...they file papers for their retirement on the day before the police show up and keep everything.

In my own town, our retired ploice chief will be keeping his full pension despite the fact that he was recently arrested in Florida for trying to rape a nine year old boy. He'll sit in prison for a half dozen years or so and have a nice little nestegg waiting for him when he gets of of jail.

@ Gary 420 :Federal Public workers are not unionized.

What are you talking about? My dad was in the USDA-Forest Service, and I'm pretty sure there was a union.

Notice how in a story about the disgustingnesss and greed of unions the word "union" is never used once?

Just what we expect MSNBC... the "news" as you wish it was.

To the liberals above:

NO ONE here is arguing that unions should never have existed. No one is arguing that unions are inherently evil and corrupt. Your arguments that anyone criticizing unions wants to be a slave to corporate abuse is nothing but a strawman, and a bad strawman at that.

What we ARE arguing is that so many unions today are corrupt. That's the nature of power: it corrupts people unless there are checks. Union bosses, especially bosses of large unions, have incredible power, and they often use that power to negotiate contracts that are worth more than their communities/employers can afford to pay. Public sector unions go even further, getting politicians elected which the union holds in its pocket, who then pass laws that protect the unions and union members even against their own faults and abuses. Why do you think it took several years and $3.5 million just to manage to fire FOUR bad teachers? Why do you think union teachers nationwide see fewer firings and less turnover than ANY OTHER PROFESSION in the US? Is it really because only our best and brightest (and most moral) become teachers? Not at that pay, they don't. And not with these records of abuse and misconduct. Teachers are no better on average than the average law-abiding profession. Yet the bad teachers don't get fired.

This is the modern legacy of most unions today: institutionalizing union corruption instead of fighting corporate corruption.

C. Smith...

Very fair points....but give it an hour or so and you'll be lectured by someone about the evil wealthy and how they made their fortunes on the backs of the poor and that's it folks like you who wish to see the backs of the middle class broken by corporate entities who have stolen the soul of this nation, blah, blah, and a blah.

But the points you made are correct.

I am getting ready to call my union. Doubt it will do much good since my state has pretty much broken any power unions have. But, I am good at my job, I want to work, I am not ready to retire. Why will I call my union? I have cancer so I just got word my position will be eliminated next year. How convenient! All you anti-union people out there, you better hope it never happens to you. If I and my union lose, you all will get to support me on disability as no one is going to be hiring a 50+ year old cancer patient.

Until you can find some other way to make administrators deal fairly with the teachers, you need unions.

Behold the power of the teacher's union in CA!

You people in CA complain, well, maybe you oughta wake up a little and do something about this, eh?

Can you imagine how the unions would howl if you made pensions related to performance, not just membership and tenure?

Can you imagine the screaming and whining as felons and criminals lose their pensions due to their actions?

I can! I'll pull up a chair and buy a ticket to listen!

This is america, and even though it's hard to remember or see, it's still innocent until proven guilty. That being said, if a teacher is convicted of a crime against children for any reason, especially while working in the capacity to be around children, the Unions have a responsiblity to everyone to make sure the guilty party doesn't benefit from the betrayal of trust.

You all need to watch "Waiting for Superman". By the same director that did "An Inconvenient Truth". After I watched it I found that hard to believe. In Illinois in 2007 over the previous 6 years 1 in 57 Doctor's lost their medical license, 1 in 97 lawyers lost their license. Teachers? 1 in 2500. The reason? Teacher's unions and tenure. Google Rubber Room and NY Teachers if you don't believe it.

They're names are those YOU voted for.

They are names of folks that were largely financed into office by unions.

Ya think there might be a bit of a conflict of interest there?

Let the Union bashing begin.
Please consider a few points before you froth at the month
1. These teachers haven't been convicted yet
2. Often, teacher pensions are in lieu of Socal Security
3. Convicted felons are allowed to claim Social Security, if they have paid into it (or if their employers have).

So, are we all clear on these points? Do we really think that someone should recieve no social security and no pension whatsoever, even if they have not yet been convicted? Many, many California state and public employees do not receive social security, as their employers opted for pension schemes instead. How many of the people commenting on this would be ok with the public at large tampering with their social security payouts? Hmmm, not so many, I am sure.
But let's all jump on the anti pension, anti union bandwagon and shout about this, while neatly ignoring the facts, why don't you?

Letus...

In 2010 in my state, government SEIU members were driving folks from the inner city to the voting booths...one such voter was quoted in the newspaper, stating "They told me one guy wants to give me more stuff and the other guy wants to take it away".

Our new Democrat governor won the election by 6000 votes out of 1.3 million votes cast. In the six poorest cities in our state, he won by 75,000 votes.

Within six months on the job, he gave us the largest combined tax increase in the history of our state.

Sean...

Thanks for the valid input...I'll call my Mom tonight and ask her why she didn't teach me about the unfairness of life.

And 'yes'...I vote for those who I believe would serve in my best interests, but I don't need to be dragged out of my home by some union hack who tells me whom to vote for while driving me to the polls.

And I find your use of the word 'retarded' to be repugnant...it surely doesn't elevate anything you might have to say.

JP,

Read my history? How about, I live in the Pacific Northwest, my ancestors worked in the mining industry, I've visited museums dedicated to mining in and around the Pacific Northwest including a very nice museum in Nanaimo, British Columbia. I've also visited memorials built to honor miners who lost their lives while trying to make a living, one of the most impressive and educational was in Butte, Montana where my father was born. DON'T tell me to read my history, I KNOW MY HISTORY! My history isn't learned from books endorsed by revisionists like McCarthy. Early miners and loggers were communist sympathizers? That is one of the most ridiculous pieces of trash I've ever read. You need to consider who wrote the history you quote and what their motivation/perspective was! Blaming unions for our jobs being shipped overseas is as legitimate as the rest of your post. Federal laws are subject to change and are continually being challenged and changed, without people willing to stand against those who would profit by exploiting individuals, our standard of living would be so horrible that our country would NEVER have achieved its standing as a model for the rest of the world to emulate. The degradation of the middle class is not just due to the export of our jobs, it is also due to loss of support for those organizations that helped create a standard of living that WAS an inspiration to everyone who hoped for a brighter future. Thanks for your contribution to our current misery.

Adam

if privatizing schools wouldnt work then how do you explain private schools? and you're right about only the well off being able to afford them....unless you allow vouchers. My kids went to private school and i can tell you this, they have alot smaller budget yet the kids constantly out perform their public counterparts. Isnt it funny that the teachers unions and liberal dems dont want vouchers?why not? because then the unions wouldnt have control. no other reason makes sense. You wouldnt spend any moe than we do now, but the parents would be able to send their kids to schools that have good results instead of whatever group of half wits that happen to be in your district.

Dano...

You do know that our current president sat on his skinny hands and did nothing, said nothing when the voucher program was cancelled in Washington DC...one of the lowest performing school systems in the nation.

That is union power to the maximum !

Throw in the Texass for good measure...

Well if you're going that far, then toss in AZ and NM as well.

And while you're at it give NY, ME, VT, NH, MT, ND to Canada.

Give OR and WA to China.

And hey presto what's left: no support for the rest of the states.

Don't forget to give ALASKA our freedom!!!!!!!!!

If the felony was connected to the actual employment, they should lose those benefits. But if involved outside of the school, law will not allow that pension to be revoked. If it has no connection with their employment, why should it?

We should take social security from anyone convicted of a crime. Would save a lot although it would be highly Unconstitutional.

@Rick

You do realize that Texas is self sufficient right? and supporting the rest of us?

And that is what? Public service unions are the reason the country is a financial mess? That's a blatant lie. Try looking at outsourcing, Wall St., the mortgage game, etc.. before you go laying blame on unions simply because it's the party line. I'm sorry I desire good working conditions and fair pay. Tired of lazy thinkers. Feed your brain with something other than rhetoric.

Public service unions are the reason the country is a financial mess?

They are most definitely a major reason California is flat ass broke.

Facts and figures please?

Expand the unions? I think that's what Greece did...how's that working out for them now?....not so much, huh?

They don't have any facts David and are only here to agitate.

Right! Would sure be interesting to see how many of these nut cases would call for firing some rear ends and divesting of vested property rights when it was their own , or those of members of their family as soon as they are accused of wrongdoing let alone before they are convicted of anything without any due process. That may have worked well in Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia, but not here. I am all for getting rid of tenure in order to be able to more easily fire teachers for cause like the rest of us working for private employers,and pay the better ones more money.

California is "flat ass broke" not because of unions, but because of laws passed 30 years ago that capped the property tax rates and prevented reasonable reassessments being applied to the homes that were there. That is why!!

" I am all for getting rid of tenure in order to be able to more easily fire teachers for cause like the rest of us working for private employers,and pay the better ones more money."

On what planet does this ever happen? Don't insult us with the idea that if you fired teachers that you'd pay new ones more. Your full of it and we can all see it. Those of you looking to fire teachers all of a sudden are simply looking at a race to the bottom in wages and benefits. Your republican politicians have made it very clear with their ratcheted up pursuit of union busting and squeezing teachers with teaching to tests rather than actually productive instruction.

Actually the idea comes from my wife, a teacher, and die hard Democrat, who is fed up with those who don't and can't teach. So save your rants for others. You just showed your true colors that you really are no different than the the other irrational posts here based on no facts

David Skinner - I live in NJ, and we have some of the highest property taxes in the country. The 3 main reasons why our taxes are so high is that most of our state education dollars go to a handful of districts, unfunded state mandates on local government and school districts and UNION salary, pensions and healthcare benefits. They are KILLING us. There is no justification whatsover for public employee unions. Private union members are unionized against the owners of capital. Who are public union members unionized against? THE TAXPAYERS!!! And the unions bargain with the same elected officials that they help put and keep into office. There is NO one representing the taxpayers at those bargaining tables. Public unions need to be done away with, period.

If it were not for unfunded pension liabilities, Kentucky's books would be balanced.

BUT allowing teachers and state emplyees to work just 20-27 years and collect beneifits for the next 30-40 years AND come back to their jobs as contracters and collect retirement benifits and higher contractor salary at the same time is a formula for disaster. Funny how double dipping is ignored by the pro public union bunch.

grilled - So now the unions are responsible for unfunded mandates??????? Unions are NOT organized against anyone, quite the opposite. Your representation at the bargaining table is the elected officials on the other side of the table from the union. You have representation, you just refuse to admit it. Why should public employees have fewer rights than private sector? Unions are based on the right to peacefully assemble. The fact that unions have produced fair wages and benefits seems to be the real problem for you.

As to Mr. Skinner's proposition that it is the Republicans that want to break the teaching unions, certainly that is to some extent true, but not exclusive. Democrats see the problem with some of the protections. Reprint from NY Times Nov 12, 2008

Gov. Roy Barnes, a Democrat, persuaded Georgia lawmakers to repeal the state's teacher tenure law in 2000. But two years later, angry teachers helped elect Georgia's first Republican governor since Reconstruction, who promptly restored job protections for teachers.

Anyone see the documentary "Waiting For Superman"?

grilledcheesesandwich --

I live in NJ too...we can thank our Supreme Court for the "educational financial distribution" that we have to live with...our anyone of our weak kneed govenors for NOT standing up to them....

....has nothing to do with the union.

BUT allowing teachers and state employees to work just 20-27 years and collect beneifits for the next 30-40 years

Then start with the military. don't they enjoy the same benefits? See how that works out for you.

Then start with the military. don't they enjoy the same benefits? See how that works out for you.

You seem to be unaware that the Military has nothing to do with state workers. Are you trying to be obtuse or was it just an accident?

I SAID STATE WORKERS AND TEACHERS!

Sco...

My state (CT) was recently downgraded one notch by Moody's, making it more expensive for our state to borrow needed funds for projects. The primary reason was the low funding levels needed to meet pension obligations.

Unused sick time, holiday time, and vacation time along with overtime hours worked in the last three years are all factored into determining pensions. Our state is broke and our overwhelmingly Democrat legislature and governor's office say they have no plans to change any of this. We have government workers retiring with pensions higher than their final year's base salary.

And we will continue to grow more broke by the day. There's an article on MSN today stating that Connecticut has now become the most expensive state in the nation to be retired in...although it surely helps if one is a government retiree.

Skinner - "Facts and figures please?"

Was this not good enough for you?

"Seven years ago, there were seven teachers that the district tried to get rid of. It took years and years. It cost $3.5 million dollars and they could only get rid of four of them."

$3.5 million to attempt to fire incompetent morons...sound like a good deal to you?

pjam...

About 15 years ago in Connecticut we had a school principal arrested in a highway rest area men's room for sexually servicing similar types of men, while fully dressed to the nines...pearls, heels, & the whole get up.

He subsequently resigned from his job with a $374,000 check in his hand...or possibly inside his purse.

I knew his lawyer, so the amount is exact.

David Skinner - try and comprehend what I actually wrote. I never said that unions were responsible for unfunded mandates. My point was that our ridiculous taxes are driven by three big factors, ONE of which are the unions. And no, we do NOT have represenntation at those negotiations. NJ's congress has been controlled by democrats for most of the last 4 decades - and guess who votes for democrats? Ding, ding, ding, that's right, UNION MEMBERS. And guess who has a @!$%# load of money to donate to political candidates. Ding ding ding, right againn. Extremely powerful and wealthy UNIONS with all that dues money to donate. So you can stuff your nonsense that non-union taxpayers have representation - because it's a big lie.

And let me tell you something else, David. We are currently paying $9K a year in property taxes on an 1800 sq. ft. ranch. Of that $9K, 75% of that goes to our schools. OF that 75%, 75% of THAT goes to pay for the school employee salaries, pensions lifetime healthcare benefits. Here's a newsflash for you, Skippy. It's NOT my job to support school employees until the day they die. GET IT NOW?!? Oh and the other 25% of that $9K. THAT'S going to pay for the salaries, pensions and healthcare benefits of the rest of my town's public empployees.I HATE public unions and everyone who thinks that they are defensible is nothing but a blood-sucking leech, as far as I'm concerned. Pay for your OWN damn retirement!!!

So don't pay for educators. Let all of the children be home schooled by their parents who most likely don't have the time or needed ability and knowledge to properly educate them. Do away with public education for the good of the few that b!tch about how their tax money is allocated. So much for our future, but hey it's only the teachers who will suffer like they should right? Privatize your local government while you're at it and see how your precious tax money is used then. Ready to cut your nose off to spite your face aren't you?

grilled...

Your state and mine (Connecticut) are neck & neck in the 'highest taxes' race. Now...don't be jealous, but our state has just topped Illinois as the most expensive state to retire in.

And my governor can ( and will ) out-tax your governor any day of the week !!! Even with one hand tied behind his back !!!

@David Skinner Interestingly enough, homeschooled Children consistently fair better than public school children. Except at socialization, they are consistently rated on par with public school children with socialization.

So, non qualified parents are doing a better job than certified public school teachers... that should tell you something about the state of our education system.

David Skinner, that was beyond childish. So you think teachers should have the attitude that it's all or nothing? That either we support them until their dying day or we should close the schools? What a piece of work you are. And I have news for you. The trend in homeschooling is increasing - and parents no longer NEED to have the time - ever hear of a thing called on-line schooling? It's just a matter of time before it becomes a main stream trend. People are sick to death of being endlessly squeezed by public unions and the day is rapidly approaching when we will need a whole lot less teachers than we do now.

Additionally, a whole heck of a lot of people are sick to death of the socialist agenda of way too many public teachers. Schools are for EDUCATION, not RE-EDUCATION. That is a very big reason why more and more people are choosing to homeschool and school on-line - they don't want their kids being fed that socialist bullcr*p.

Sean...

The "righties" are so stupid....but ALL of California's problems were caused by Enron ???

That sounds so simple that even "righties" can remember it. Nothing else has gone wrong in California except for Enron. Got it.

tmc24 -

"I live in NJ too...we can thank our Supreme Court for the "educational financial distribution" that we have to live with...our anyone of our weak kneed govenors for NOT standing up to them....

....has nothing to do with the union"

You couldn't be more wrong about this. The Union has had EVERYTHING to do with educational funding in NJ. The unions overwhelmingly support democratic candidates with millions every year in campaign donations paid for with union member dues. Those elected democrats are the ones who pressed for this out of control spending in our urban school districts and democrats are largely the ones who appointed the LIBERAL judges who completely overstepped the limits of their judicial authority and forced this funding down all of our throats. So don't tell me the unions have nothing to do with that. They OWN it.

I think if you looked up the word " Progressive" you would find a picture of the Guy in the White House!

Progressive equals Community Organizer, equals Spreading the Wealth!

Unions were o.k. back in the day, but now they are abusive, greedy and very Political.

Marcel + numbers back in the day corporations had a social contract with the communities in which they operated. Unions back in the day are the only reason you are not working 80 hour weeks, are being paid overtime, the only reason OSHA exists, the only reason you can expect a fair wage, and are not discriminated against...too many to list here.

Today however corporations have shredded their social contracts and are whores of Wall Street investment houses whose sole purpose is buying more $30K waste baskets. There are 2 sides to this story and you should make an effort to hear them both before openning mouth and inserting feet.

BTW I'll take this community organizer any day over the muppet wannabes. They make excellent material for comedians but lousy leaders.

OBAMA IN 2012

@Ron... key phrase in your statement... "unions back in the day" unions today are the key reason we aren't seeing more progress in schools. Any progress that might reduce the number of union members is unacceptable.

No pensions, No health benfits , NOTHING! If you are a Politician ! Do you get any of those "Bennies" if you

worked for a Company for 4 to 6 years ? HELL NO ! What is so Special about these Slime Balls ? Do they go

to the bathroom and somehow Crap Ice Cream????

If you want to clean house, start at the top, and work your way down.

You're absolutely right. It's about time the rest of the Country took a page from Scott Walker's playbook and knocked the Unions down a rung or two.

Sally+numbers

Do YOU realize you are advocating that anyone fired for 'just cause' forfiet the retirement benfits they themselves have contributed? STOP being a lap dog, as you are a danger to yourself and those around you.

If you are capable, think about the implications which suggest ANYONE can trump up 'JUST CAUSE' fire you, and keep all your hard earned benefits. Is that what you really want?

Whew some of you are really, really scary.

OABAMA IN 2012

NO, what's really scary is that many of these people actually vote.

Ron, I should have clairfied that, fired for just cause of criminal acts, tried and found guilty by a jury. Sorry about that. And no, I'm not a lap dog, are you? Plus no politician pays into their retirement fund, we taxpayers do. And depending on where you live, taxpayers may also pay for the teachers, cops, etc pension funds.

The only thing taxpayers pay is the contractually agreed upon wage and benefits packages agreed upon by your elected officials and the union. The pension money belongs to those who pay into it, the employee, as it's part of their pay. Just like you wouldn't want anyone taking your 401k, because it's your money, don't try to take anyone else's.

The pension money belongs to those who pay into it, the employee

David, typically a state emplyees benifit contributions equal about 5% of the benifits they actually recieve when they retire. ITS NOT THEIR MONEY!

What this boils down to is that you folk can't get it through your heads that whatever goes into the pension fund belongs to the employee. It's a contracted part of the wage and benefits package. It's really that simple. You don't like the pay they're getting, elect new board member, councilpersons, etc, don't come after those responsible for your safety and educating your children. They're just doing their job, make your representative do theirs.

Scomata:

Typically, my wife the union school teacher, pays 100% of her pension contribution. The fact that it is wisely invested for the most part and increases in value should be a positive, rather than a reason to irrationally blame her and her colleagues for poor decisions of lawmakers.

Except many pay little or nothing into their pensions. So pensioners ARE just taking taxpayer's money. And you're right. We don't like it.

The pension money belongs to those who pay into it, the employee, as it's part of their pay. Just like you wouldn't want anyone taking your 401k, because it's your money, don't try to take anyone else's.

In Connecticut, the rate of return on teacher pension programs has a minimum guaranteed rate...so taxpayers fork over the difference in a week economy.

I hope they bite hard enough so we all wake up and smell the Over Priced Coffee !!

Few collect "huge" pensions and many continue to work because their pensions aren't enough to cover retirement expenses. The military is a good example of this.

AG99,

If you commit a crime as a soldier in the US armed forces, what happens to your pension?

Easy, you lose that.

If you are a politician, and commit a crime and get convicted, guess what, you lose your pension.

Teachers, you can molest your students, and still get paid. At least in CA.

For those that say "they invested money into there pension, they paid for it!". Sorry, you contribute far less into the pension than what you get out of it. Fine then, determine what they contributed into there pension fund and refund the amount they invested plus a percentage for inflation. Thats what they do for politicians that lose there pensions due to criminal acts.

John, I was addressing Gavin's concern about receiving a pension while also working another job.

Typical christian conservative response: KILL THEM!

Typical bigoted response by an ignorant anti Christian liberal

ScoMata - So you are in favor of murder then? Very christian. Fits the mold we see from your leaders. Lose a tooth.

David, that is the silliest replies I have seen in a long time.

First, nowhere did I state my political or religious affiliations, and second, I did not say ANYTHING about murder. I simply called a bigot a bigot. Should I take your example and deduce that you are a bigot because you are attacking me? Fine....you are a bigot.

You need to work on your reading comprehension and your common sense.

Where exactly did I error? Are you not a christian? You're quick to label someone as anti-christian, and you're not bigoted? You still didn't answer the question---Are you in favor of murder as the OP suggested? Fools aplenty.

Everyone take a nice long look at David Skinner's posts, he'll soon be gone for violating the Vine's personal conduct clauses.

bawl,

We can do that, but we also need to blame the unions and the screwed up politicos that have allowed the inflated and corrupt pensions we see so much of...

Inflated pensions?? You do realize that pensions are a negotiated portion of a contract? Why is it bad that someone working there whole life should retire with enough of THEIR money to be comfortable? Is it because they chose careers that happen to be public sector? Or is it because you hate unions?

The "inflated" pensions drum is really getting old. People keep drinking that kool-aid. Believe it or not, I'll get my state-supported, union-negotiated pension when I retire. I WON'T get social security. I've worked and paid in more than people who will get just about the same as I will in social security. Go ahead and hate me. I paid, I'll draw. The ones that do the double dipping with huge payouts are MANAGEMENT! They are not union-negotiated pensions, they are "good-ol' boy, golden parachute" pensions.

However, for the sake of this article, even criminals are entitled to their property, even their pensions or social security. Ask yourself this--if someone has paid into social security, is he/she denied his social security benefit because he/she has committed a crime in the past?

Hey Zapper, most people that are working in the private sector that contribute to THEIR Social Security probably won't see a dime.

Consider yourself lucky, if I had a choice, I would rather have 0 taken out for Social Security, be non-eligible for benefits and be able to invest that money on my own.

I worked in the private sector for years. I still won't see a dime of that social security I paid in, even if social security is still solvent. Yeah, I paid both ways, and I only get one. It doesn't sound quite fair, does it? The money I'm paying in now, is straight out of my paycheck into my pension fund. My employer pays in less than your employer pays into your social security. I pay the lion's share, so yes, I'll get my retirement, but all my previously paid SS is history.

(If my state job didn't have the pension, we would be paying into SS, too. And the state would be paying MORE into SS than it does its share into my pension. We all have some sort of plan, by government regulation. Please don't blame workers, who get a pension, for the failures of Social Security. Put that blame squarely where it belongs--Congress.)

and protect pedophiles because they pay dues?

Ya think?

So Public sector retirees should rely on 401K's and investments like the Private Sector does?

Sounds all well and good except for one thing-most Teachers (and my Husband is a NJ Teacher) aren't paid the same inflated yearly salary that you Private sector people are. Therefore, how do you expect them to invest and save in the same way you Private Sector people do? This can't and won't happen.

Unless you are a School Administrator, the majority of Teachers make WELL under $100,000 per year, while the Private sector bunch drive around in Mercedes and live in million dollar homes. If you can afford that kind of lifestyle, you'd better be saving and investing for your future, not relying on any type of Union to fund it for you.

I know a woman who lives in my town whose husband is in the Private Sector-works in Manhattan-and they rely on his BONUS at the end of each year to pay off loans and Credit cards that they incur throughout the year. They had an $85,000 Home Equity Loan that they PAID OFF entirely with her husband's bonus alone-and she only works 4 days a month. This is a nice gig if you can get it!! They also drive a Mercedes and have a vacation home in Florida. Most of the Moms in my Daughter's School have Husbands that have these Private sector jobs, or else they own their own businesses. Trust me, none of them are hurting AT ALL financially, and are well off-but they are also the first people that will bitch and moan if a Teacher in this district feels he should be paid more!

Something's not right with this-perhaps if they would give up their fancy homes and cars, then paying a little more into their yearly taxes to provide a Teacher with a fair wage wouldn't be so much of a hardship for them.

Where's my Husband's yearly bonus? We can sure use an extra $85,000 now to pay off a lot of our debt!!!

So stop bashing Teachers, people! When my Husband's yearly salary is equal to what a lot of these Private Sector salaries are, not including bonuses, then you can start complaining!

You want Union wages and think this is where the cushy jobs are? Then get a Public sector job!!

Great idea, Keith...That way, Wall Street can play with even more money and wipe out more people's retirements...

fred - I appreciate what you are saying, but you're backwards. The protections are put in place to protect workers. Management has every bit as much say as to what procedures are put in place for grievances. It's in every contract agreed upon by both parties. The Union wants it for protecting the worker who is unjustly charged, fired, etc., management wants it for removing underperforming or bad employees. Both want the same thing: A productive workplace with quality employees.

As for public sector unions, I can see why you oppose them. The problem is that you can't have a public vote on everyone's wages and benefits. It's just not possible. And what's to keep a politician from just firing good employees so that the positions can be re-filled with less qualified lower payed workers? You want your children to be educated by people that don't even have the proper education to be teaching in a classroom? It's already happening and the children are the ones suffering. Unions are not about protecting bad workers no matter how much the right says so.

*And what's to keep a politician from just firing good employees so that the positions can be re-filled with less qualified lower payed workers*

Which is EXACTLY how towns/cities balanced their budgets in the "old days"....out with the old, higher salary treachers, in with new lower costs ones...viola...balanced budget at the cost of our childrens education/future.

Doing this is what gave rise to.....egads...TENURE!!

People have short memories in this country and need to educate/inform themselves more. They should check out the coal mining situation in W.Va in the early 1930's....you would swear its the 1830's.

Unions have played a VITAL role in the success of this country and to think people blame the, what is it now down to now 6 millions union members, for the woe's of this country is just nuts. YES for sure they have their bad spots and need to stop wasting 90% of their efforts to protect the bottom 10% of their workers but all in all they have been a good thing...remember NOBODY put a gun to the heads of management to have them sign the CONTRACTS they've signed with the unions....public unions are obviously a differnent story.

I've worked in both the private and public sector. I currently WORK for a Union but am not a union member..I see the good and the bad....out of the 160,000 members they represent...their AVERAGE pay in NEW YORK CITY is $35,000....you can't rent a closet in NYC for that amount!!

Oh yeah...the average pension of those union workers?? 17k/year. In fact the avg pension for the LARGEST public union in the state of NY is just over 19k/year.

Yep, I just got word that my district is "eliminating" my position next year. Just a few weeks after my cancer diagnosis. Of course they still actually need the position, so they are creating a "new" position that is slightly different, just enough that they can say I don't qualify, and they can hire someone fresh out of college for half the cost. And you really want to trust school administrators to be fair and honest without the checks and balances of a teachers' union?

Of course thanks to my district, I may be one of those you all gripe about retiring early, but my pension will be less than a beginning teacher earns. And it sure won't be my choice! How many more teachers are out there that were forced into retirement or disability by such measures.

But here's the issue. Why are people pointing fingers and blaming the public sector, when it's pretty clear where most of the wages the private sector should be earning is being drained by the rise in health care costs.

I used to work in the public sector, and we went over 5 years without any raise whatsoever, in large part because our health care costs were skyrocketing. In 2005 I started working as a programmer at $36K, and when I left that position in 2010, I was still making $36K. In that time, the cost for my healthcare plan went from $9,000 a year to $13,000 a year (with me contributing over $2,000 each year).

I sure could have used that extra $4,000.

You can't blame the union worker for collecting what is theirs because it's more than Joe Neighbor. Perhaps it's telling that the union positions pay more. It clearly shows that even making better wages, they are still employed by institutions(government or otherwise) that continue to value their production. For all of the rhetoric about Obama wanting to "spread the wealth," all of you anti-union folk want your piece of their pie. Very hypocritical.

*many years ago the public sector employees REALLY did work for less money. the public employees got good retirement benefits and that was understood by the public. we pretty much accepted that and most of us were ok with that.... the problem is over the last 30 years the private sector wages did not keep up with the rise in public sector pay*

In 2002, 9 months after 9/11 I took a job right next to "The Pit" in NYC. I'm in I.T. I EASILY could have been making 25-50% more in the private sector. I took this job for the SECURITY it could provide me and SACRIFICED earnings for it. In the TEN years I have worked here I have TOTALED 15% in raises. EIGHT percent of that came in '08'09. Havent had a raise in 2 years and wont expect one for another 3-4. (for the record I hate the practice of working massive O/T your last 3 years to pad your pension and think it needs to be stopped)

Compare THAT to my counter parts in I.T where DESKTOP guys in private firms were making 50% more than I was for 8 of those years...Now THEIR CHOICE has gone bad for them and I'm supposed to cry them a river?

Seems a little incongrous to me.....

Well said, nice points. Trying to reason with most of these people is futile.

Trying to reason with most of these people is futile.

Especially when they don't share your unbiased perspective.

I will admit my bias readily and have not tried to hide it. What the other side should admit is a lack of intimate knowledge of how unions do and don't work, and how most of the rhetoric they spew is straight from talking points of the anti-union movement. The lazy worker does not exist in solely in union workplaces. Workers who do not perform are removed by a joint panel of union reps and management/boards. Mobs do not run unions. In the past, yes there were a few unions that were guilty of that in the past, but c'mon it's reality time. I will say again, if you don't like how much a public employee is making, take it up with your elected officials, they agreed to it.

I am all for getting rid of bad seeds. This conversation has become a 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' scenario. Because a few teachers in California have acted like criminals(allegedly,and I have to say that since we still have the right to presumed innocence) you can't jump to taking away collective bargaining rights for everyone else. The two don't meet.

Gov't employees are not the same as private sector employees. For instance, gov't employees get ten paid holidays while most private sector employees only get six. A soldier who had been dishonorably discharged loses all his veterans benefits. A teacher convicted of a felony should lose all of his or her benefits as well. Don't forget the govenment is there to serve you and me, and when they commit heinous crimes, they should be punished accordingly.

"...they earned it" How is that? By using the schools I help fund for their twisted and illgal activities.

Take a look in the mirror and you will see the problem.

Codes of conduct are part of nearly every union or employment contract. Violating the code terminated the agreement including pension benefits. These circumstances start a process with the union representing its member to the school board and usually ends with some reduction in benefit rather than completely voiding the agreement. But that is how reasonable people would approach a situation like this so stay tuned and watch the circus to follow.

"These circumstances start a process with the union representing its member to the school board and usually ends with some reduction in benefit rather than completely voiding the agreement."

...after about a million dollars has been spent in the appeals process.

I like to know how much you contribute each week to your pension and how much you get for the rest of your life. I have a feeling you won't tell us because what you get for life is probably obscene compared to what you put in. That is the way it is with most public pension plans.

The pension plan I was a part of had a maximum payout of somewhere around 45% of the average of the 5 highest paid years in service.

The employer did pay into the pension plan, but there was a cost to the employee, in that they lost the cash that would otherwise be placed into a 403(b) account for them. So for the 2 plans we had available to us, we either got credits into the pension plan, or cash into an account. The pension fund is managed via investments, and for my particular fund (Florida Retirement System), it's well managed and properly funded.

In my particular case, had I stayed in the position I left until retirement, I would have been able to retire at around 52 with full benefits, with an income around $17,000 a year.

52?! How about 66!!

if they are accused and not convicted then why are they not still teaching? maybe with supervision, that way we wouldnt be paying double or tripple for the same job. then if convicted they could be ordered to pay the supervisors fee.

AND why , in this day and age arent there cameras in every room of the schools? wouldnt that stop alot of this and also end false accusations and long drawn out trials

amen