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Eric Gay / AP
A Predator B unmanned aircraft lands after a mission at the Naval Air Station, Tuesday, Nov. 8, in Corpus Christi, Texas.
The Federal Aviation Administration is preparing new rules that could make it easier for law enforcement agencies to use drone aircraft in the U.S., raising concerns about privacy at a time when the aircraft are already conducting surveillance missions in some parts of the country.
The American Civil Liberties Union released a report Thursday demanding better protections against a surveillance society, “in which our every move is monitored, tracked, recorded and scrutinized by the authorities.”
“Our privacy laws are not strong enough to ensure that the new technology will be used responsibly and consistently with democratic values,” warns the ACLU report, "Protecting Privacy From Aerial Surveillance: Recommendations for Government Use of Drone Aircraft."
The report follows a weekend story by the Los Angeles Times that detailed how the unmanned aircraft are being used in domestic law enforcement cases, and not just along the country’s borders to track illegal immigrants and drug smugglers as was originally authorized by Congress in 2005.
The Times said a North Dakota county sheriff asked federal authorities to employ a drone for surveillance in a standoff with three men on a farm June 23, resulting in the first known arrest of U.S. citizens involving the spy planes in a domestic case.
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Do you think domestic drones pose a privacy concern?
Since then, the Times said, two unarmed Predators based at Grand Forks Air Force Base have flown at least two dozen surveillance flights for local police. The Times reported the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration have also used drones in domestic investigations.
Next month, the FAA is expected to issue proposed rules that the ACLU warns could expand their use by domestic law enforcement agencies.
The FAA declined comment for this story but in a recent fact sheet acknowledged the growing interest by law enforcement in unmanned aircraft.
“The FAA is working with urban police departments in major metropolitan areas and national public safety organizations on test programs involving unmanned aircraft,” the FAA statement said. “The goal is to help identify the challenges that UAS (umanned aircraft systems) will bring into this environment and what type of operations law enforcement can safely perform.”
Texas Gov. Rick Perry has supported expanding the use of domestic drones along the border with Mexico. In October, the Sheriff's Department in Montgomery County, north of Houston, bought a $300,000 ShadowHawk drone from Vanguard Defense industries using federal homeland security grant funds.
“It's an exciting piece of equipment for us," Chief Deputy Randy McDaniel of the sheriff's office told the Houston Chronicle at the time. "We envision a lot of its uses primarily in the realm of public safety -- looking at recovery of lost individuals and being able to utilize it for fire issues."
McDaniel said the aircraft would not be used to track suspects’ vehicles but may provide surveillance for officers serving warrants.
M. Ryan Calo, director for privacy and robotics at the Stanford Law School's Center for Internet and Society, says widespread use of drones domestically seems inevitable, particularly since they are an efficient and cost-effective alternative to helicopter and airplanes.
“Drones are capable of finding or following a specific person,” he writes in a recent article in the Stanford Law Review. “They can fly patterns in search of suspicious activities or hover over a location in wait. Some are as small as birds or insects, others as big as blimps. In addition to high-resolution cameras and microphones, drones can be equipped with thermal imaging and the capacity to intercept wireless communications.”
In addition to privacy concerns, Calo said, drones also raise safety and security issues, particularly because they can crash and their guidance systems can be hacked. He cited the case of the CIA drone recently lost in Iran. The Christian Science Monitor on Thursday reported a claim by an Iranian engineer that the Iranians were able to exploit a navigational weakness in the drone’s technology to make it land in Iran.
Catherine Crump, the ACLU report’s co-author and staff attorney with the Speech, Privacy & Technology Project, said the organization isn’t against the use of all domestic drones but rather wants to make privacy a central issue as the technology becomes more available.
"We have a clear opportunity to get ahead of the game,” she said.
Some of the ACLU’s recommendations include not deploying drones unless there is certainty that they will collect evidence of a specific crime. If a drone will intrude on reasonable privacy expectations, a warrant should be required, the ACLU said. The report also calls for restrictions on retaining images of identifiable people, as well as an open process for developing policies on how drones will be used.
“Historically, the fact that manned helicopters and airplanes are expensive has imposed a natural limit on aerial surveillance. But the prospect of cheap, flying video surveillance cameras will likely open the floodgates,” said Jay Stanley, the report’s other co-author and senior policy analyst with the ACLU’s Speech, Privacy & Technology Project.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News:
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"Constitutional protections are in place!"
Really?
Agreed!
Take a look at the BS recently regarding how police can create their own exigency or how the 9th Circuit Court noted that one's property curtilage doesn't include your driveway...unless it's gated!
I think it's foolish for people to trust government as much as they currently do and continue to support giving up personal freedom for the illusion of safety!
Every little thing that chips away at the Bill of Rights is just one step closer to allowing for ever greater and more ridiculous blatant abuses of power.
Yes they are.
They are just in places you can't find them. Perhaps there under the patriot act.
Yeah, under the Patriot Act the way I have old business cards under my cheap dining table to adjust for one leg being shorter than the others
What's to fear? The United States had a "drone" as pretend president, for eight years! Remember Bush?
I would hope , they protect the people...that's what we pay for (4)
Yeah and now we have the Drone operator asleep at the controls!!! ie OBAMA!!!
I hope they use these things! I hope they are armed with tactical nukes that can specifically target ghettos... and illegal immigrants .... and, and,
Personally, I really don't give a dam about areal surveillance.
the way I see it, if your not doing anything illegal then you shouldn't have anything to fear.
I like the idea of the government spying on welfare cheats and drug dealers and people like Bernie Madoff.
I have nothing to hide and big brother has bigger fish to fry than me!
After three years people still attempt to pretend Obama aka zer0 is somehow better than W was?
Really I don't see any improvement at all in fact he might be worse since he is even more arrogant.
Obama is an empty suit 100% take away the teleprompter and he is every bit the stumbling bumbling fool Bush appeared to be.
These drones will be used in a manner that will strip away 4th amendment rights.
Slippery slope has been achieved it's now been greased with skids added for effect.!
Reporting from Washington— Armed with a search warrant, Nelson County Sheriff Kelly Janke went looking for six missing cows on the Brossart family farm in the early evening of June 23. Three men brandishing rifles chased him off, he said.
Janke knew the gunmen could be anywhere on the 3,000-acre spread in eastern North Dakota. Fearful of an armed standoff, he called in reinforcements from the state Highway Patrol, a regional SWAT team, a bomb squad, ambulances and deputy sheriffs from three other counties.
He also called in a Predator B drone.
As the unmanned aircraft circled 2 miles overhead the next morning, sophisticated sensors under the nose helped pinpoint the three suspects and showed they were unarmed. Police rushed in and made the first known arrests of U.S. citizens with help from a Predator, the spy drone that has helped revolutionize modern warfare
It isn't that far down the road before americans begin to realize the uproar the civilian Pakistanis are in over the drones. I watched military tanks ramming the Corrish compound and then blame the occupants for the fires the tanks caused to breakout through the ranch killing 120+ occupants and it won't be long before our police and military try to convince us that they only use the drones to take out suspects because it's cheaper, more efficient and much more accurate.
When will American get freeburty and Constitutional protections from a police state?
ur repuke bushie stripped us of civil liberties with the patriot act. personally big brother is watching u play with ur pee pee
Big Brother is watching!!
@ Benr - "Modern Warfare"? You play too many video games.
You can be deprived of a private conversation? More freedoms down the toilet.
You know Seriously your right (and I mean the guy named seriously) we are losing our rights slowly and surely under the pretense that we are being protected but you know the best part... Nobody gives a frickin damn because we will always wait for someone else to wipe our asses. When are we going to realize that we are losing our asses. They say that the economy is coming back when there are people down the street from me who are losing their jobs and even their stores. What the heck is this bull@!$%#? How much longer are we going to continue to listen to bull@!$%#? How much longer will we wait until were sick and tired of being sick and tired? Italy and greece are on the verge of declaring bankruptcy, the U.S is leaving Iraq which will soon enough go into civil war and the whole middle east is fighting which will soon enough affect us more on the gas prices. WE NEED TO STAND UP AND GET OUR JOBS BACK AND RIGHTS BACK DAMN IT! then again.....am just a disgruntled american who will probably be ignored anyway by the flocks of sheep going to the slaughter
Awww, shucks! No mo pissin in the backyard I reckon.
bloggit: Be careful what you wish for, you may get it. And if a drone "accidentally hits your neighborhood, who will mourn for you.
Why do you post on MSNBC, if you have so much hatred, for the disadvantaged? Go listen to FOX LIES.
I think I smell a used up tea bag.
Vote the O out in 2012 and we can start this country doun the right path !!!vote ABO
Folks, you have no idea how awful this is. The Senate has decided that the Posse Comititatus Act of 1878 was just a joke. Really, there's no reason the military shouldn't hold American Citizens in prison. The military now has the authority to imprison Americans right here on American soil. The Senate has passed this overwhelmingly. You'd better hope the President follows through on his veto threat.
I wish "Seriously" had gone a step further with the exigency issue. In the America I believed in this simply could not happen, but that America is gone. Justice Alito wrote in this decision that if the police hear "scurrying" - I swear I am not making that up - then they have every right to imagine that a criminal is attempting to cover criminal activity. Thus, they can break down your door without a warrant. I mean isn't the sound of scurrying just about the clearest indicator of criminal activity you can imagine? Remember that name - Alito. That's the guy who shook his head at Obama and said Obama was wrong during his State of the Union message. Alito is an enemy of the Constitution.
Now we have drones overhead. It took more than a century for Justice Brandeis to find a Constitutional right to privacy. Now, that right is being destroyed and obliterated each and every day.
You might be interested to know that it was on this date, December 15th, several hundred years ago that our Bill of Rights was adopted.
Our government is an embarrassment.
@ David Walker and Nemesis-2101965
Agreed. I usually make allusions toward subjects to allow people to come to the same realizations as I, without simply spoon-feeding the reader of the severity of many of the issues.
The curilage-item I linked is also a doozy! The 9th circuit basically wrote that if you are wealthy enough to afford a full gate around your property and security in front, you are entitled to expect privacy on your own driveway. However anything shy of that qualifier and anything right up to your front door is fair game for law enforcement to bug and track...awesome!
Ironic to say the least. I hope Obama vetoes the Defense Bill (though I have my doubts)...this is ridiculous! AND it passed both House and Senate WTF!
These are seriously scary times
The use of these drones as described are a foul and disturbing escalation on the governments war on peoples constitutional rights. It seems that we have relinquished to the government the power to determine what rights "We the People" may have. If that’s the case, then we have no rights.
You know, there isn't a damn thing the drones can do that helicopters don't already have the capability of. You don't think that this "wireless interception package" that they can put on drones, can't be put on a helicopter? So why the screaming fits over drones and not Helo's? I say use the drones. Much cheaper than buying a chopper, far less maintenance, uses a hell of alot less fuel, and can stay up there 10 times as long. Town I live in usually has a helo circling overhead looking for someone at least twice a week, shaking the hell out of the house. A drone with a spotlight would make me alot happier.
Only argument I can think of that people would prefer helo than drone is the noise factor. People can hear the chopper overhead, guess that means they'll wait to be naughty till after it leaves? If you are anti-drone, you sure as hell better be anti-helo or you're a damn hypocrite.
To be honest, I'd also rather have a drone crash land on my house, than a chopper...
Sandtrich ~ voice encryption is available for the Android, (http://whispersys.com), IPhone or Blackberry (http://www.kryptoscommunications.com)
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety ~ Benjamin Franklin
Ahhhh. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Really now. In my opinion, any thing that the ACLU is against, I am for. I really think that if they had their way, and all you paranoid fools as well, then all local, state, and federal law enforcment personell would not be allowed to walk out of their house without putting on a blindfold.
What the he// do any of you really care if a drone is watching you drive to McDonalds, and then go home?
You are really not as important as you seem to think you are, and the Government really dosen't care if you like extra ketchup on your fries.
Yes. And Obama extended them.
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
Yes, he is.
"The trade-off between freedom and security, so often proposed so seductively, very often leads to the loss of both." -- Christopher Hitchens
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
That is a really good one freedman1. But trust me. Even with that the NSA is STILL listening to everything everyone says to someone else on a phone !
This is a very slippery slope and using military hardware such as "Predator" drones (even the name betrays this fact) on civilians further pushes us on a downward spiral to a point in which we won't even be able to recover our lost rights. We are looking at a police state in America - Fortress America. Since few Americans object I guess we deserve it. Personally, I'll be moving to a free place like Europe if things get much worse.
Correction @ my previous comment (#1.27) -- first quote and last quote are duplicated. First quote was supposed to read:
"Those who have been once intoxicated with power and have derived any kind of emolument from it can never willingly abandon it." -- Edmund Burke
Well that's the way it should be but it's not. Here is a video that will prove that wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Gary Cooper ~ That's fine. However using military grade 256 bit AES encryption to encrypt voice communications before transmission using 2048 bit RSA for key exchange is certainly within my rights as a free American citizen exercising free speech.
After all, if I'm not doing anything wrong, why would the government care if they can't understand my communication?
The same drooling morons who support this would be the first in line to get a mark/microchip/barcode on their right hand or forehead for scanning and tracking.
They would say "it's no different than tracking your ip address online".
People don't understand this basically allows the government to have a floating video camera trained outside of every home in America.
The amount of sheeple on this thread bleating about the greatness of drones is awe inspiring.
You would think that democracy meant "protecting sheeple by any means necessary".
Sad days for America.
Poke a sheeple ask the dunderhead why it has curtains on its windows, "Oh, yeah....privacy, derp"
What manned helicopters do you know of can linger over a location for over 24 hours without human intervention maintaining continuous situational awareness the entire time?
There's a reason aside from their disposable nature that our military uses these UAV's
Oh, I'm sure Google has provided the encryption key to US law enforcement. Uncle Sam is not about to let an off-the-shelf product be used to send messages that are beyond the immediate access of their surveillance.
And I'm fine with that...so long as they've gotten a warrant first!
I take real issue with this. Not only does our intel community snoop on every country in the world, they want to know what their own citizens are up to. We'll become a military dictatorship before much longer. The funniest thing--they're using "our" tax dollars to develop and use technology to intrude in our daily lives.
Maybe with the help of these drones they can spread that new man made flu virus I just read about. Good Luck!!!!!
Seriously:
It sounds so paranoid and so over-the-top that it's almost embarrassing to put this thought out there, but I simply can't shake the feeling that martial law will be imposed within the next ten years. Kiss habeas corpus good-bye. These times are scarier than we imagine.
Gary Cooper:
Do you have no locks on your doors? Do you not have deadbolts? Do you not have passwords on your communications devices? Do you have no need for security? Do you really trust the government that gave you the threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Do you really trust the government that sent 58,000 G.I.'s to their deaths using an incident that never occurred as justification? Do you understand that the same police that have virtually no restraints on their surveillance techniques also have no obligation whatsoever to protect you?
When the sky falls, please STFU!
Drones have been used for some time already in the U.S. it shouldn't surprise anyone that our government doesn't inform us of such things. One other little item our government hasn't informed us about is that U.S. troops are on the Jordanian Syrian border. They have asked the American presstitutes to hold off on reporting this fact.
Folks, when is enough enough? If we don't speak out nobody will. Let's legalize our constitution!
Maybe it's time to start watching Big Brother with a little surveillance ourselves...and study about jamming equipment...I do not like the idea of a heavy unmanned plane flying over my house...it's bad enough with one with a pilot.
Whether we are doing anything wrong or not it's still infringing on our rights!
It's entirely plausible. I think it could make McCarthyism look light weight in comparison. I doubt the SCOTUS, in it's present makeup would stop it.
Anyone else notice MSN framed the poll question as "yes-positive" and "no-positive"?
Nice catch, Jungleboogie - the semantic antics of MSN on this one are pretty frightening. S'pose anyone over there has a vested interest in getting the software contracts? Or am I being too cynical? (I don't think so - the wall between editorial and corporate is normally strong, but when the vested interest is strong enough, it tends to fail at critical moments.)
Is anyone really surprised, how are these Manufacturers of arms going to keep making money since the wars are winding down, the palms are greased and the puppets are going to keep their Masters cash flow, flowing !
Hey, this fits right in with my bitch of the week - where all that US debt is accumulating. A military Drone costs $4.5 million. FEAR is what put us in debt - all planned by 9-11. The Bush administration has been profiting from fear since the 1980's (and 9-11 ramped it up cuz them crooks ain't getting any younger). Now Obama spends even more trying to figure out where all that spending went - so far the FEAR spending continues and now we have 300,000 agencies either trying to find the fraud (not very hard) or continue to cover it up.
You people who cry Social programs are the problem - have social problems...lol.
It's poor journalism when you make it like a Rasmussen Polling the way MSN did.
How much do you hate your current President
A) A helluva lot
B) More than a helluva lot
C I'm a socialist Liberal
Poor "poll that I wouldn't answer
Rick-3608408
Is anyone really surprised, how are these Manufacturers of arms going to keep making money since the wars are winding down, the palms are greased and the puppets are going to keep their Masters cash flow, flowing !
I know what you mean on this one. How does the DoD get an increase when they should be taking a hit? Chopping away at one side of the equation, the domestic budget, yet no mention of cutting foreign aid or defense. With loads of returning troops to be handed off to the Veteran's Administration--the VA is getting no bump. It the way that the Federal Government says, "Thank you for your service."
Without these wars, Korea and forward, we'd have a fat Treasury while Defense Contractor stock wouldn't be worth anything. But, hey---we're #1 in manufacturing things that kill."
Tis but another example of the greater problem with this nations government. For the people by the people. That greater problem being that this government ALWAYS finds new and effective ways to turn on society. Its own citizens as though we are to be herded or controlled by them . Them being the government for the people by the people. Forgetting this fact. Instead choosing to act as though they are an omnipotent group policing citizens for our safety and own good. But they are not are they?
Instead our government is meant to work for all of our good not to track hurt hunt and nanny the public "for its own good". Sure they worked well in war against enemies but are citizens enemies, combatants on the field? I suppose a good reason to hold indefinitely citizens without cause or warrant hmmm? Indeed.
Think about it..
Cheers
They way I read the news, they are gearing up for at least two more wars.
I think we are going to see it a lot sooner than that.
I see one of those freaking drones I"m gonna do a Jim Morrison on it, give 'em something to really watch
We can complain all we want to, we can gripe and groan from our computer chairs till our titties tickle, but we are a worthless lot for actually doing something about it. When people do brave the bone wrenching cold, and police oppression, all you folks can do is chastise them with follow up media hype about them being worthless, jobless, lazy vagrants that have no sense or wisdom. When good people stand strong, you criticize them like the similar lot of heathens that complained about the civil rights movements and" the worthless "n"rs that crowded the streets and blocked traffic and didn't have a job." At least they did something back then worth publicizing, and at least the TPs and OWS'rs are doing something about it other than sitting on their asses whining.
The worthless lot of you all can go to hell in a hand basket for all I care, when you sit on your asses, won't write your Representative, Senator or Congressman, and make known just how much you deplore this type of military operation prohibited by the Constitution, no matter what meaningless tripe they wish to mouth as to the sensibilities of the flyovers.
Testing drones to see if they are a viable solution for police departments to buy at $300K a piece and untold thousands to operate and upkeep is a BS story and we all know it.
Your governor is the one you should bitch to the loudest, as it is with only his permission such actions can be taken. He's the coward representing you and supposedly protecting your rights!
As long as you sit atop your @!$%# bagger computer chairs and wage your verbal wars from your little self righteous thrones, you deserve the very oppressive atrocities of government that local city, county, state, or federal can get away with.
In an era where the House, The Senate, Congress, the Government, and even the President can say and do what they want with little responsibility or worry of retribution, being that the Supreme Court no longer makes judgement in favor of Americans but more so for the powers that be, you deserve to be enslaved under any pretext they wish to cast your way, as long as you lazily protest it from your chair.
Swallow your words and show up in mass protest now while the OWS movement is going on before it is totally quelled. Join the Tea Par-tiers whether you agree with them or not, or for God's sake join the American's Elect movement! God damn folks, do SOMETHING besides sit on your fat assess whining and crying. We are the worst bunch of Americans for generations before us and most likely for generations to come.
Lazy, discontent, whiny, spoiled brats who forgot what honor is involved with being a man, and what type of respect a woman is suppose to have to prove she is truly a woman. You have your voice and your vote. Quit joining in all the political finger pointing games and oust them all if need be.
@ sandwich; They could listen in on your conversation? So what? So can a thousand other people with scanners, do you think you will be singled out by a drone so they can hear you.l
David was right this is over the top paranoya.
Who is exactly doing this sandwich. who ar they? Who is intruding into your life personally,no one. Give one solid(personal) example of how the government is taking away your freedoms. with a domestic drone,
Not one on this vine has offered one. Because drones are not going to be used to spy on you or any other innocent American, be for real. iF you are so unhappy here why do you not just leave. All you ever offer are delusional hypotheticals about what could be,never offfering facts. Like the one I have picked out above.lol
THis article wins the tin foil attractor award.
Shhh there is a drone overhead, they might find out what I am wearing to the dance tonight!! lol
You guys are incredible.
djdrew:
Thank you for your sacrifices and service to our country.
I finally get to say that to someone.
Drones to patrol our borders and international waters can be justified, but any domestic use should require a warrant the same way it works for other surveillance methods. This is no different from photography or radio sniffing done on the ground. Just being airborne shouldn't grant them special waivers on citizen's rights and privacy protections.
And, these may be unmanned, but they aren't running mostly or all by themselves like satellites do. The remote operator is acting in the same capacity as a manned aircraft except sitting at a computer screen instead of in a cockpit. Simply calling them unmanned gives the impression that they aren't under that level of control. To be more accurate, instead of calling this particular type of craft unmanned, we should call them remotely controlled.
Coral Taxi,
You state that drones would not snoop on innocent people. That's a flawed assumption that pervades our society where only guilty people are targeted by the police or put under surveillance or arrested. That flies directly in the face of our legal system assuming someone innocent until proven guilty and by my reckoning could also violate parts of articles 1, 4, 5, 6, & 7 of the Bill of Rights depending on how far one takes it.
There is more than ample evidence of innocent people, groups, and movements targeted, arraigned, and held in confinement without due process in our history to put the onus on government and law enforcement to require warrants and justified authorizations to prevent abuse by targeting people on political or ideological grounds or violating citizen's rights just because they have the power and ability to do so. If we don't exercise these controls, then anyone picked up by the police would automatically be assumed guilty and would need no trials to be convicted, and don't assume it couldn't happen to you or any one of us. That is what makes our rule of law strikingly different than many countries where there is no presumption of innocence.
@ Mike; You are splitting hairs, when I say innocent I mean people that are not up to something, not the opinion of the police surveiling you.When it is found you are not up to anything if they are watching you, Im sure they would not continue to watch you, unless you have a very interesting life worth spending man hours on to watch.lol. Thinking the government is going to use this for political advantage, spying on others is ridiculous.
I have given example of how the privacy issue is being adressed, this is a brand new problem. We are already being filmed or videoed everywhere we go outside, freeways, stores,parking lots, why people are assuming the government will use this tool in a manner to intrude on your life is beyond me. We are already being watched everywhere.
I will assume this will not happen to me, because I live in America. So your saying because we have domestic drones, it is the start of us losing our right to due process? Come on sir, be real.
Give me one example of how a drone could PERSONALLY take away your rights or freedoms. ie Would they follow you to work? Watch you barbequing in the back yard? Hover over your house at night, to see what you are up to, do you really think they are going to target you personally? As the other hundred people you will give not one.Because the idea is ridiculous.
I'm hopeful that the US won't devolve into martial law, I see the phase that we're going through similar to the McCarthy era of communist witch hunts.
Things are going to come to a head, and the US population is going to get really scared about just how much power has been allowed to coalesce with just a handful of people, and the backlash will be to create new separations of powers similar to the post-McCarthy era through Nixon. It's one of the reasons today that the Office of the President doesn't actually have anywhere close to the level of influence it once had under FDR for example. But you can see that we are slowly transitioning back towards that, with all the paranoia that comes with it.
Part of the human condition is fear; and there are far too many people that don't resist the knee-jerk reaction to allow other people to have control over them out of fear and the desire to maintain an illusion of safety.
"I'll be moving to a free place like Europe if things get much worse."
You'll find yourself very disappointed with this choice if you do it to get more freedom. Having lived in both Poland and Germany for years in my past, it is at least equally as bad in Europe. Unless your idea of freedom is cameras on top of nearly every building and at each street corner.
As for the drones, I don't have anything to hide however I don't see how a country that is ostensibly based on liberty and freedom from tyranny can even consider using what are essentially spy planes on its own citizens without the vast majority of the electorate being outraged.
It's not a matter of what we have to hide or from whom we are hiding. This is the United States of America, we stand for protection from government not protection by government.
Beautifully put!
Takethatback., you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
I see people here saying the predators are no different than helicopters spying on us, so what’s the big deal? The big deal is a government that feels the need to spy on people, and they won’t bother with a court order either because drones can accomplish that which cannot be accomplished with helicopters which is they can literally spy on anyone covertly and the constitution be dammed.
Eventually, technology can enforce law far more precisely and far more stringently than we have been able to before. This is not good, because law can then be tightened to the point where that which is not forbidden is compulsory, and that which is not compulsory is forbidden. We are not machines. We should not let our lives be enforced by them.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means." --Thomas Jefferson
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." – Thomas Jefferson
Ah, Mr. Jefferson. I would that your wisdom was more attentively heeded by the citizens of my country, who have given over to complacency and indolence and daily sacrifice their liberties for the illusion of safety. Your greatest fears have come to pass. The government has become the dictatorial arm that you warned us to be ever vigilant against. No longer does it serve the will of the people-- no longer does it defend their liberties. It has become an enemy to the people and an enemy to freedom. The government has ruled that it can seize private land (imminent domain), it can surveillance the people without warrant (Patriot Act), it can incarcerate its citizens without trial indefinitely (National Defense Authorization Act-- not yet signed to law but has passed both houses), it can assassinate US citizens without trial (Anwar Al-Awlaki), it can search our person without warrant (TSA)... and we all idly watch as our liberty is usurped by the wolves of government. God help us all.
"If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions." -- Thomas Jefferson
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenal
"Make yourself sheep and the wolves will eat you." -- Benjamin Franklin
Gary Cooper ~ That's fine. However using military grade 256 bit AES encryption to encrypt voice communications before transmission using 2048 bit RSA for key exchange is certainly within my rights as a free American citizen exercising free speech.
After all, if I'm not doing anything wrong, why would the government care if they can't understand my communication?
I think you don't really get it freedman. Even with anything you want to run your phone conversations through, the NSA will STILL be able to listen to anything and everything you say to anyone on that phone. In fact having that level of encryption almost guarantees that they are indeed listening to everything you do with that phone, instead of just letting it run through their filters to "listen" for any words or phrases that are on their "list".
I've always wanted a big brother???
But did you plan on one with the same trustworthiness and concern for their fellow man as someone working the front desk of the DMV or an IRS auditor?
I think Judas Priest sang about this in Electric Eye
@Patrick demarco-I remember that song and that whole album fondly.
@ alwaysanother
Exactly how does allowing police to search me with ever-greater ease sans a warrant protect my rights?
Read up on Portugal and Amsterdam. Both have focused on decriminalizing drug use and instead put the money towards rehab programs and clinics that provide clean needles. Their populations have some of the lowest levels of drug abuse compared to almost any other developed country and the rates of STD's transmitted via drug use is FAR lower!
But maybe Scientific American is wrong?
Illegal aliens? It doesn't matter how much technology we impose! If you want to deal with the illegal alien issue, start voting for politicians that will enforce the US laws. Both Bush and Obama have placated to illegal aliens because as career politicians, they want to court the Latino demographic in order to garner more votes for them and their party.
Bush made sure to make purposely futile moves and only conducted limited deporting measures that he could put his name on, and then instituted building a super-expensive border fence which was more pork than anything.
Obama fights viciously through his AG to make sure that the rest of the country doesn't force his hand into actually taking care of the problem
Finally, neither Bush nor Obama will do anything about the real reason behind the illegal immigrant problem...abuse of the 14th Amendment and refusing to indict employers of illegal aliens!
If we revised the 14th Amendment interpretation to end the instant citizenship for all babies born in the US irrespective of their parents' citizenship status, AND we went after employers of illegal aliens, most would self-deport.
In fact, we KNOW that many illegals would self deport even if we just went after employers! Look at how many left the US and how much illegal immigration dropped when we were in the deepest points of the recent recession.
Not to worry if the Iranians can figure out how to spoof one then there are plenty of geeks sitting in there parent's basements that can do the same. Drones will be dropping like flies.
My thoughts exactly :) hehe it is my drone now.
Funny thing. The police can place a GPS tracker on your car while it's parked in your driveway without a warrant, and yet they can also claim that it is still their property if/after you find it!
I say, like someone leaving a flyer on my car for 10% off 7/11 Slurpees, it's mine!
Thanks for the awesome GPS and nifty battery pack, BTW!
I think you're wrong about dropping like flies. I think the Iranians will hijack them and use them against us, then say how could anyone hack into those things. I like the Intelligence guy that came on and said they didn't scramble the Monitor signals, so when they were dropping bombs on people, others could see the monitors on their TV at home. Imagine watching 30 Rock and the TV suddenly changes to a monitor from a predator drone and you watch your neighbors house get worked by the Iranians who took over control. Sad state our country has turned into with the last 2 bozo's in chief.
I wonder how long it would take for there to be an app for that :)
Good point, we may even see an American resistance force grow out of this police state we are in. I've already seen the Nazi-like Big Brother ads on TV warning me to report my neighbor for ANY (what that is they don't say) "suspicious activity" just like they did in Germany circa 1938!
Next we'll have stormtroopers (today they are called Teabaggers) going house-to-house looking for "contraband" and resistance fighters. This is nuts - hard to believe in 50 years America went from bastion of freedom to fascist military state...
I wouldn't doubt if if sometime very soon the Occupy Movement becomes the underground resistance freedom fighter movement. Scary that we're talking about reality and not science fiction.
I happened to be outside pretty late one night and heard an odd buzzing. Next thing I knew, there was a drone flying over low enough it could have been taken out with a rock. I don't like it when pilots buzz right over my house trying to show off and I don't want drones flying over where I live so low they could run into trees. Private property is no different than a bathroom. These people have no right using surveillance tech at close range over citizens. It isn't like they turn off the imaging systems and only turn them on when they see something illegal.
To those who claim not to mind invasion of privacy because if they aren't doing anything wrong they have nothing to worry about; what about laws that are not just or constitutional? Imagine of they had these things during prohibition. You wouldn't be able to have your glass of wine with dinner you fools. There are a lot of circumstances where these things could cause damage. If police come onto your property without a warrant, you can get legal satisfaction. If they are airborne or using drones over your property and happen to conduct surveillance without a warrant, how would you know or be able to prove it? I put more trust in the law than I do in those enforcing it, but both are corruptible.
@The Overlord
You are buying into the Mainstream media propaganda that OWS, the Tea Party, and Libertarians are the fringe "nut" groups.
The "establishment" or "neo-con" Republicans and Democrats are the prime culprits of these new 'laws'.
Better get that warrant.
They will get a warrant for one target and just happen to fly over a dozen others not mentioned in the warrant on the way there.
<< hands the ACLU a tissue.
Ceiling drone is watching you master****
Why are you handing the ACLU a tissue. They hate Americans and stand up for Illegal Aliens as much as possible. They used to be a good organization, but PC doesn't exist in a country where there is Freedom of Speech.
Once again the FAA acting like the gestapo. I am sick and tired of the FAA stomping all over our rights. I can see the usefulness of the drones but our laws are not strict enough for these things to be used for domestic uses. The law enforcement in this country act like bullies and half of them are corrupt as hell. They will use these things to spy on everyone they can. The FAA just needs to go away!
Obama and Holder will use them to supply guns to the cartels. Want gun control, start with Obama and the governments proliferation of weapons for profit, then we can talk gun control on citizens.
WHO? No one here is talking gun control except you.
I dealt with the FAA at my job for 5 years and that was 5 years too long. Not only are they out of control and gestapo-like, they are also paid puppets for Boeing, which also makes their objectivity highly questionable.
The "Occupy Parents Home" geeks haven't got a clue what is going on over their heads. But of course it is "over their heads."
I have no issue with the use of aerial drones looking in my backyard, we already have the ground "drones" in America occupying our paychecks.
"Unless there is a certainty that they will collect evidence of a specific crime." What a crock!
A crime is a crime and it is specific. Why does the US have more lawyers than any other nation in the world?
I'm simultaneously impressed and horrified by your complete lack of concern for how much power you are willing to hand our elected and appointed officials.
You do realize that the idea of a warrant before a search is to create a check and balance against giving a single individual or collective the ability to abuse public resources for their own designs
You have no problem with removing that necessary stop-gap then? What if the police misinterpret the imagery from their drones flying over your house and decide to use that to perform a raid? Combine the use of a drone, and the ability for police to create their own exigency, and there's now a whole host of ways for them to easily bust down your door on a whim without a warrant.
Our government has been shunting entire fiber optics runs to storage servers for years with no judge, jury or warrant they crossed that line years ago.
Just remember you may trust the guy in power now but what happens when the next guy is a insert your fear here far left/right wing nut bent on grabbing more power because he "knows whats best for you"?
S? N...R?!-7.1- Never underestimate the power of OPH Geeks in large numbers. Remember the group "anonymous" and the havoc they caused?
You say the above like it something new. The "authorities" have been able to do all of the above for ever. And you say "that necessary stop-gap. Who says it is necessary? . What is necessary about it?
I have nothing in my back yard that I care about anyone looking at. In fact, several folks like to come see the garden and flowers. Whats in your back yard?
Give it a break, technology will continue to develop and will become more "intrusive" if you have something to hide.
I guess you would require a warrant for stopping someone who ran a Stop sign, as they "didn't know someone was looking".
"If you have something to hide"
There are plenty of things that are legal today that are still embarrassing or potentially damaging. What's to stop a bigoted small town using its one drone and its spying ability to find out that Johnston down the road is actually a homosexual hedonist, and then they anonymously let that info slip. Johnston could well end up murdered. He broke no law, just someones over zealous sense of right and wrong
Furthermore, many of those over zealous people are working fervently to take away even more rights from you and make even more of the things you do illegal. Remember prohibition? What if Democrats decide to illegalize firearms and use drones to find yours?
THINK before saying "I've got nothing to hide". You assume the government will always be your buddy? Even as the majority of governments in the world are actively oppressing and killing their citizens...? Or maybe your the kind of guy who signs up to be the first to shoot democratic protesters.
dude are you for real
where is the limits on this kind of technology
who are they to take your rights and mine
if they start with this what will stop them from the next step ---nothing
because of people like you that do not understand what your rights are
greed is greed and power is power
you are just a nother dumb down american that like's the hype
you give up your rights and i will keep mine and we will see who wins
@ Bill from Oregon
Laws need to adapt with changes in technology. Heck, wiretaps didn't require a warrant until the 1970's.
And you don't see that as a problem? You're fine with increasing the ease and breadth with which for them to do so?
You are treading towards ignorant-troll territory, and my finger is twitching on the "ignore" button.
It's called due process, warrants are required on almost all major criminal law-enforcement activities, particularly those that lead towards arrests. It's a measure that bridges constitutional provisions in due-process with search and seizure (among others). In short, if you want to know more, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH
First, I think you grossly underestimate the wide array of gear that these craft can utilize. They don't have to stop at your back yard, these craft are perfectly capable of picking up all of the radio traffic from specific locations, they usually also carry an advanced FLIR to go along with their other optical packages...this perhaps may be one area that would require a warrant (e.g. looking through your walls and monitoring your radio chatter).
You act as though law enforcement has never made mistakes or abused their power. Hopefully you will never have to be on the receiving end of an incompetent/crooked official
Strawman much? Get back to me when you can maintain at least a shred of credibility and not just spout off the usual "I've got nothing to hide" response.
I've provided plenty of links throughout this thread detailing where officials have abused their powers or made egregious errors that could have been prevented with an extra layer of redundancy. Until you can rebut with anything other than repeating your naive nonsense, I'll be discussing this with more rational folks
well done Seriously? No...Really?!
plz don't help these trolls let them dig there own holes
And the scariness of what is happening to our counrty continues to mount daily.....wow, where am I? As we promote democracy and freely give up our kids to die for freedom in other countries, our freedom is being stripped away from us.
@ lori;
Last time I checked we had the largest volunteer armed forces in the world. Do you really think a domestic drone is going to take your freedom away?
Many before our generation have died for our country, and as I tell my kids that are now late teens, they are not to good to die for their country, and to never think you are. Unfortunately we do lose some of our children in the name of Democracy, but they all died with honor and motivate others to keep up the good fight, so they never die in vane.
I think Coral is being disrespectful to those who have died by giving away what they fought to protect.
U of C; Oh really, you have no clue what I do to defend the honor of our fallen Soldiers. Do you honestly think that drones are going to affect your personal life in anyway, with the exception of PROTECTING, your freedoms, and keeping live pilots out of harms way, in far away countries? Do not flatter yourself, to think they will come looking for you.lol
Give one example of how a domestic drone could affect your life, or how it will take away your freedom personally. Good Luck.
You know they have technology that can literally see and hear see through walls now right?
You must be really blind not to see whats coming next.
WWW.infowars.com
Feel free to peruse this sight to understand just how bad it may get and as bad as theses guys think it;s going to get it will get alot worse.
@ Ufo C;
fear not viners, new ways to spy, new way to keep them in check. The cost of surveillance alone deters quite few a PDs to not purchase them so I would not worry as much as you all seem to be.
@ U fo C; Still waiting on that example sir, and as far as respect for our armed forces, seems where you are from where they have none, and you rail on me, when the town you were raised in tried to deter the youth from joing the army? By your own words, go ahead deny it, I dare you.
@Coral Taxi
I didn't know the size of a country's army had anything to do with its freedoms.
Oh, but then the Waffen-SS was a large volunteer army in Germany until 1943.
What that has to do with drones being used to spy on Americans is in no one's head but your own.
@ JB;
She stated that parents were freely giving up their children to be killed, not a fair statement.
Our kids VOLUNTEER to fight, we do not give them up to be killed, it amazes me how such an ignorant statement could be so popular. So I pointed out that we have the largest VOLUNTEER army in the world.
And of course the size of your army has everything to do with keeping your freedoms, including drones. I was just adressing an unfair and wrong statement.
Are we clear now?
Caral Taxi — How about this one...... When that drone (that also is stealth ) goes out of control due to whatever glitch, ends up for whatever reason getting into the flight path of a airliner or private aircraft BECAUSE IT NEVER SHOWED UP ON ANYONE'S RADAR, and doesn't have any IFF , beacon , position transponer on it, then takes down that other aircraft due to a collision and the drones don' have EYES on board like a manned aircraft. When the inevitable midair collision occurs, what will it go down as????? Pilot error on the side of the manned aircraft that never saw the pint sized piece of junk with human eyes or radar?????????
@ burk ; Your concern is noted, and being adressed.
China has a larger standing army than we do. Still don't see what that has to do with drones and freedom. Best try again.
Still not one example of how anyones freedom can be personally taken away,by a drone. That doesnt deserve their freedom to be taken away that is.I back up every word I say, and can not get one example from the tin foil wearers.
u of c, seriuosly; You have talked alot and said nothing, nor backed up anything you have said, Uof c has cut and run because he knows he has been exposed, as a hypoctite to question my Patriotism, when he says he was raised in a town full of "conciencious objectors" and can not cite even one example of what he accuses the government of. You and your town are the disrespectful ones sir, so keep hiding.
@JB; I was answering to an unfair statement, for the third time.wow If you can not understand my last response to you then I can nto help you.
That quote was from your 2nd statement, which was to me.
Perhaps you meant to say "nothing" in place of everything?
I understand your quote perfectly. And it does not make sense. It is nonsensical.
As though the size of an army has any correlation with the freedoms of a citizen.
You just said "the size of your army has everything to do with keeping your freedoms" - can you not see this statement does not follow simple logic?
You're the one who said it, is English not your first language?
@ JB. Yes when all else fails attack the grammar, why dont you go down the whole vine and correct everyones grammar. And yes I meant everything.
Are you saying having a larger army does not make you more secure? You are belleaguring, and I should not be following along.
I don't know about JB, but I am saying it.
Security doesn't come from a large military. It comes from tending to your own damn business. Consider Canada, which has one of the smallest armies in the western world and seems to be getting along just fine by tending to itself and leaving the rest of the world alone to do the same, while our bloated military tramples all over the world killing innocent people, embarrassing the hell out of those few of us who are not cretins, making enemies, and fostering terrorists.
@ Jerri; Dont sell Canada so short,they have a great miltary, and their soldiers fight and have fought side by side with us in Afghanistan,and has lost many lives, they are not minding their own business. You see you have no idea what you are talking about, just trying to attack me.
That "bloated miltary" is what is keeping you safe and warm from attack. Maybe we should change our centuries old tactic of bringing the fight to them, and let them build up and come here, all so jerri will not be embarressed.lol
Saying we should mind our own business, and all will be o.k, is an ignorant and selfish statement, and a dangerous one.Why I allowed you guys to make me digress,on an irrelevant point to the article is beyond me, but you must be put in your place. Go educate yourself.
Get a clue,the only embaressment you suffer is showing that you say things are true, that you have no clue about, in a public forum.
Taxi, I don't think you have what it takes to put me "in my place" on your best day. You're just another person who confuses warmongering fantasies with fact. And if you don't want to digress, no one is really forcing you to do so. I doubt anyone except yourself considers your opinion to be terribly vital to this thread.
The bloated military is not only NOT keeping me safe and warm, it has encouraged hatred for my country and provided a platform for terrorist attack that will endure for the lives of my grandchildren.
Do you really think there is one native Iraqi on the face of this earth that does not hate the USA with a passion? Do you think there is one who, if they could do so without endangering themselves or their neighbors, would not make a small sacrifice to wipe us off the planet?
And whose fault do you think that is -- mine? No. I protested against invading another country that had done nothing to us, destroying its infrastructure and murdering its citizens at the behest of an alcoholic moron who wanted to show off for his daddy.
No. It was the military whose very presence was an atrocity and who committed many unspeakable acts that were published all over the world.
And I am SURE I have a MUCH bigger clue than you about the issues, since I have actually lived in the region and you sound like a person whose never been outside of the U.S. in your life.
# jeri;
Umm sir, you were completely wrong on your asssesment of Canada's ,military, I set you straight , not with my words but fact. You were put in your place, because your emotions over rode your ability to study something before you made your comment trying to put me in my place, and you failed miserably sir. If you are a sir.
As far as no one being interested in my opininon, I have been debating,domestic drones, and how the government could use them against us, of course I jumped on the government side knowing I would not make my share of friends,lol, for the past two days not including this one.So do not tell me people are not interested, when I drew so much attention to my post, was my opinion popular, well I think that is obvious.lol,Did I put up a good case, I believe so.
The people I have been debating even said I put up some good arguments, and we all ended on a peaceful note, agreeing to disagree.
This statement shows your lack of appreciation for your armed forces, and is a slap in the face of all those that have died for you,or are fighting for you and me, at this minute, to tamper down them flames of terrorism, and are doing a hell of a job at it, I might add. Shame on you! How you can sit here and say your military is not keeping you safe, I do not know. It has encouraged respect for your country! From those that wish to harm us, it gives them pause, and what a long pause it has been, but it could never be a long enough one.
What the hell does that mean? You write things that are completely false, as if they were fact, I prove you wrong, and you come back and say I am the one in fantasyland.WOW. I am all about the facts sir.Which is exactly how I put you in your place. Not with opinion. that you seem to have a very strong one, but with facts sir, facts.
Get a clue.
Oh and, if you can not get behind your armed forces, or are that unhappy here well, dont let the door hit ya, where the good lord split ya.lol
@jeri; You think that did not put you in your place, well how bout we expose you as the hypocrite you are. maybe that will work.
You rail against the president and military for saying this? Now this is from your post 1;55
jerri-1
#1.55 - Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:05 AM EST
Well if you think the presidents words were the most blatant propaganda, and you say the same thing in your post 1;55, what does that tell you about your self sir?
Those whom live in glass houses should not throw stones sir. Take a good long look in the mirror sir.
Still think I do not have what it takes, think again.
ROFL
The post you reference, in which I thank djdrew for his service to our country, was not referring to military service but to protesting.
*shakes head*
Nope, I don't think you have what it takes.
Furthermore, (and this gets a little personal, for which I apologize in advance), you go to some trouble to sound like a big-shot. You'll do better in that regard if you read a book on grammar. At least learn when to use who vs. whom. It sounds so pompous when you use whom incorrectly.
Frankly, you sound hysterical. And all this "sir" stuff.... When a name that is usually masculine is spelled with an ending letter i, that's a tip-off that the person is a female.
I think you've spent too long "looking in mirrors." Take a deep breath. Calm down. Visit a library. Get a little education.
@ Jeri; Well then you are thanking the wrong people. You sound like a sympathizer, and a traitor, if you are thanking them for their service, they use up the services sir, not perform them.
And I showed your ignorance the first time when you wrote BS, about Canada, you sir are the one that needs to get educated.
I was going to reply to the live poll, but the choice of "Yes. They will, by making surveillance much easier and cheaper for law enforcement" isn't exactly voicing concern. It's justifying their use by saying it would be cheaper and easier for law enforcement.
Do we really think law enforcement officials will use these drones for strictly good? Think now of Occupy protests being monitored with drones, or a bored officer using it to sneak a peek at backyard pools. Once we allow these devices to enter our law enforcement and lives, their use as "tools" quickly becomes diluted as to what their purpose really should be. I agree with the ACLU that these need to be limited before their use becomes rampant.
@ west; Please read my post 11;12 that explains how these drones are allowed to work domestically. Educate yourself, because it truly does not work the way you are saying nor will it.
@ west;
Yes the watchcommanders, (whom could be female), will surely allow man hours for this. You do not need a drone to watch occupiers? So what if they did watch a potentially bad situation, then they can seperate the true thugs from the peaceful protesters, I would say that is a good thing.
Don't you see, Coral Taxi, that it is not necessarily about the precise technology or the narrow fact that there may be spy planes used to monitor legal citizens by our own government - it is broader than that. Think in terms of implications. Technology will advance indefinitely and new ways of doing things like these will occur. The government cannot be allowed to expand indefinitely along with it and trample over the rights we are given in the Constitution.
The government is not entrusted with protecting the Constitution and our rights. The burden is on the citizens to protect their rights from government. Power has a natural tendency to want to expand. If you allow it, power will expand until it cannot any longer. Think of creatures that grow to the size of their tank. This is not a positive or negative judgement, just the fundamental nature of power.
So yes, perhaps this is not such a huge deal. But if you have one million things that are not big deals, all of a sudden, collectively, you have a serious problem on your hands. It is incredibly easy to give up a right and near impossible to take it back.
On the other hand you're not going to launch one of these things right next door to your intended target; you'll be flying it an unknown distance before the "official" observation begins. So why not just start the sensors running at take off and record everything along the way?
And mass data storage is cheap. You could make a couple of passes over the swimming pool where a suburban family is swimming nude in their swimming pool.
Just because something shouldn't be misused doesn't mean it won't be misused.
@ artaud; Very good,very insightful this is the argument that makes sense, and is the point these viners should have used, more than saying the government is trying to spy on them.
Alot of times in a debate when others can not get their point across, I tell them I could argue their side for them better than they can,lol, even though I am on the other side. The point you have made is exactly correct,and the one I would of used, and the only thing I would agree on as far as using domestic drones, but I was not going to help them along.
I almost started writing it.lol Yes once a little erosion starts it could be the beginning of a landslide,as far as our constitutional rights.,which is why in one of my post I pointed out that drones should be subject to checks and balances, and not used on any citizen without approval of a judge. To say the government is spying on us and are afraid of us is ridiculous, I am trying to give the tin foil hats different perspective ,to no avail though.
Very True.We can not give a little. This philosophy has been and is still followed to this day.
To have a fully functional Police State, drones are needed to spy on us to help control us.
Conservatives can't give away their freedoms and rights quickly enough.
Yea yea....THAT'S IT !!...yea thats definitely it.
@larry
Are you trying to say the idiot in the Whitehouse who appointed all the good commies to posts and czar positions is conservative?
What a joke.
Socialists are in power now.
Every president in the last thirty years has been conservative by comparison with the presidents we had from the 30s through the 60s. Eisenhower was staunchly AGAINST big business, especially military contractors, and he was an Army General. Nixon was a major supporter in the introduction of Medicare for America's elderly--and they were both from the supposed "right wing" party. Can any of you imagine Reagan, either Bush, Clinton, OR Obama introducing Medicare to an America that didn't have it? Any one of them would be instantly decried by both parties as a Communist with cries for his impeachment.
Whomever thinks drones are going to be used in a way to invade your privacy are wrong. Unless you are some kind of terrorist, or a serious threat to society, I doubt you will be targeted for surveillance.
That of course excluding the naked sunbathers. Better put your tops on ladies. lol
If I had a drone I would fly it over Pamela Andersons house, wooo wooo.
Maybe 15 years ago.
The thing Coral fails to understand is that when the technology becomes cheap enough, it's not about who is "targeted." Every square mile can be watched every day.
I love the "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about" statements.
You do realize that there are police that abuse their power, right?
You do realize that warrants were created as a stopgap measure against giving an enforcement entity the ability to act completely autonomously with public resources, right?
Every time we create a bypass around a warrant, that's one step closer to allowing for terrible abuses of authority as we remove oversight and checks and balances.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!
Not too long ago, it didn't require a warrant to tap a phone line either. Now it takes a secret edict and several illegal acts by a (former) President to do so.
@Uof C; Something tells me you are wearing tin foil. Not one post has given one example of how a drone can take their freedom away.But they all rail against it.lol
And it makes perfect logic, if you are not doing anything wrong what do you care ?
The coast gaurd helicopters fly over my boat when Im out in the gulf, I just wave and feel safe they are there. If I saw a drone I would be like cool, and take a picture of them.lol
yes and u can also play with ur pee pee
@ Coral Taxi
Read up on the changes to exigent circumstances and how the SCOTUS now allow police to break down your door on the suspicion that you are destroying evidence that might convict you. Never mind that they have no real reason to be at your particular door in the first place, and don't posses a warrant...YOU could be destroying evidence!
Now, take the above fact, combine it with 9th Circuit's dilution of curtilage precedent, and you have a recipe for law enforcement to both perform invasive surveillance on a whim, and then be able to use ONLY THEIR OWN JUDGMENT in order to break down your front door!
...all in the name of safety and national security of course! You may have been trying to destroy evidence!
...Anyway, you seem rather calm.
It's not like there are any other examples in the world of an overly intrusive governing police state that's prone to abuses of power and the breaking of even their own invasive rules for narrow personal interests.
I wonder what the Duke Lacrosse players think about government officials abusing their authority?
Mistakes are sometimes made
Sometimes things are embarrassing for a department
Sometimes people want to be a powerful middle man
Sometimes they just want to get rich
In short, we have enough problems with regard to corruption and scandal amongst our elected and appointed officials, are you seriously so naive to think that it would be a good idea to afford them greater powers and reach without imposing the proper checks and balances to ensure both accountability and proper use?!
@ serious; Umm noo, read my post 8;5, maybe you should read my posts before you assume, because we all knows what happens when we assume.
It actually goes right to the point that there will be checks and balances
Coral Taxi,
What you fail to realize is that it's not a matter of if you have something to hide or not. It is a matter of it's nobodys damn business what you do or have in your house or back yard, especially not the governments.
If people wanted to be watched they'd get on the Big Brother show, but most people prefer not to be watched, or monitored and they shouldn't have to put up with it in a free society. Now, if you are doing something illegal and the police obtain a warrant, OK. Otherwise it's nobodys damn business what you do, and that's the way it should be.
This is a sign of a government starting to fear it's citizenry. The know that the citizens are getting fed up with Washington and they fear their power may be taken away by the masses. Paranoia on the part of the government.
Be very careful before you agree to allow this kind of behavior by the police. Benjamin Franklin once said, "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither." Truer words were never spoken. We must all realize that the more freedom we give up, the more government controls us. I don't know about you, but I don't want or need the government controlling me or my life.
By not taking the "big Brother" problem seriously is one very big weakness that the general public has had for years now. The US is or soon will be using these type of "electronic spy ware" to not just see in our back yard but into every room in your home and hear everything that is said. It will be up to a very controling, maybe even mentaly unstable, official to interprut what they see and hear. In other words, everone and I mean everyone is at the mercy of "big brother". Good by personal rights and freedom.
HAHAHAHA...OMG really? So the check and balance is the cost? Are you kidding me? That's your rebuttal?
What makes you think that drones will always be expensive? When have electronics EVER gotten more expensive as they've improved?
Cost? Really? I guarantee that every law enforcement agency that has a budget for a helicopter will find the dough to buy a UAV given all of the conveniences it provides, both logistically and legally.
What about all of the agencies that DO get a drone? Where are their checks and balances? Or are you assuming that NO agency will be able to afford a drone...even if they have other aircraft already at their disposal
Are you an alt for Bill from Oregon?
serious; Rebuttal?, no sir you asked me a question so it is your answer. Nice of you to leave out in your post 11;5, the part of my post about 8;5 about the checks and balances,that you think I am so naive about.
Here is the part that not so serious left out of my post 8;5 to make himself right,because if he would of pasted the whole thing he would of looked silly, you see he assumed to soon that I was naive.
from post 8;5;UAVs are potentially extremely powerful surveillance tools, and that power – like all government power – needs to be subject to checks and balances.
Asking me if this is the cost makes no sense sir.
@ serious and u of c; Yes this really sounds like the government is hot and heavy to hear your conversations about the new neighbors down the street.lol There already is control, not some random snoop trying to get in your business.lol You may now take the tin foil off.Please educate yourselves before overreacting
Coral @ 11.12
"In response to such concerns, some agencies are setting guidelines that allow
the flight of drones only for specific missions, rather than random air
patrols."
Well that certainly puts my mind at ease. Some agencies are actually setting up some sort of guidelines. Of course that means that some aren't so they'll just keep snooping around at random. And, of course, even the ones with guidelines don't specify what those guidelines are or how they'll be monitored or enforced. And of course we should all be perfectly comfortable in allowing virtually every employee for every law enforcement agency in the country this kind of unfettered access into our personal lives because there's no chance they might use it in an improper way.
And using the Miami-Dade Police Department as an example? Good one.
"In February 2001, three South Florida police officers were indicted for drug trafficking, including using their patrol cars to transport drugs for drug dealers. Their actions came to light when one of the officers attempted to shake down an undercover officer posing as a drug dealer. Acting on a tip from an informant the officer pulled over the undercover officer’s car, seized the $200,000 he was carrying, and split the money with his informant.
In September 2001, nearly a dozen current and former Miami SWAT, narcotics, or special crime- suppression officers were charged with stealing evidence, planting guns at crime scenes and covering up their actions in a string of police shootings that killed three people, including the shooting death of an unarmed 73-year-old man in 1996. In that case, officers raided his apartment to serve a drug warrant and sprayed his bedroom with 123 bullets and then lied and said he had a gun. No drugs were found. The corruption and abuse were reminiscent of the “Miami River Cops” scandal in the 1980s in which more than 100 Miami police officers were arrested, suspended, or punished in a series of drug-related cases.
In October 2001, two current and former Hialeah police officers were charged with protecting and assisting drug dealers, setting up three robberies (including the robbery of a 7-11 store), serving as lookouts, and providing police badges, handcuffs, and pepper spray to robbers.
In November 2001, a Sarasota woman brought a $3 million lawsuit against five Manatee County sheriff’s deputies who planted drugs in her ho me. All five deputies were sentenced to prison for various offenses, including planting drugs on suspects, stealing money from people under arrest, and lying. The men were part of an elite drug- fighting group called the Delta Task Force and prosecutors said their offenses occurred from 1995 to 1999. The woman lost custody of her baby for 18 months after she was convicted in 1997 on drug charges during a trial in which the deputies lied to jurors."
But I'm certain there's absolutely no chance of anything like that ever happening to you.
Coral Taxi — I gave you your example of what could go wrong in a previous post. You choose to ignore it. When the stealth drone that doesn't show up on any manned civilian aircraft's radar "accidentally" center punches another US aircraft, I hope your butt is on that aircraft. It will give you something to think about on your short ride to the scene of the crash.........
@ soldiers dad;
Did you fail to forget there is a new administration every 8 years. we do not have to mass to take power away sir, it is taken away every 8 sometimes 4 yrs. Yes the masses can take the power away, it is called a vote.DUH.
So why would a government(administration) that is going to get kicked out anyway be afraid of the citizens? This makes no sense.Can you argue that point? When are we not fed up with Washington?lol Sounds more like "paranoia" more on your part than the government, do you think your senators and congressmen, are truly afraid, come on sir.
Send in the drones the masses are getting restless!! lol
@ jurk; Are you still upset from the beating you got the other day.lol I havent even seen your post sir, or knew that it exist, where is it, and we are talking about domestic spying, and the loss of our freedoms, not military activity.
@hart vig, well at least the first part of your post was relevant, the rest is digression at its best, and I do not believe any of the rogue cops you mention will be flying drones.
The guidelines are specified sir, you must get permission from the fAA on case by case basis, do you think someone is just going to break protocol,and start randomly flying a drone? That is very ignorant. They will be monitored by watch commanders, and the FAA. To think the government is scared and watching us because of it, is ridiculous.
@ jurk; I have answered to your post, check it.
You seriously believe that the Miami-Dade Drug Task Force will not be using drones?
And that this could never effect anyone that you know?
I grew up in McVille, North Dakota. That's about 15 miles from where the drone flights mentioned in the article took place. I've hunted on land adjoining the property of the people that were arrested. And while I no longer live there, family members do, and they know every person involved in the story: the sheriff, the Brossart's, their neighbors, everyone.
And while in this one case they were used in a reasonable manor it would be foolhardy to think that the potential for serious abuse doesn't exist or that it couldn't effect you because "I'm not doing anything wrong".
Neither were German Jews in 1935 when the Nuremberg Laws were enacted.
Or essentially every educated or professional person in Cambodia in 1975 when the Khmer Rouge seized power.
Or millions of Russians in the 1920's and after.
Or millions of Chinese in the 1940's and after.
I simply cannot fathom how people can not only be indifferent to but seemingly hellbent on discarding the very liberties that are the ONLY thing that make our nation any different from any of the above.
"I do not believe any of the rogue cops you mention will be flying drones."
I'm also fairly certain that none of their victims thought that the police would be blasting away at their homes or planting evidence or be in business with the very people they were supposed to be protecting them from.
Coral taxi — not upset. Asking very relevant questions. Yoou think I got a beating.....Yooou don't know squat. You sure are hard over for wanting to have our dear uncle Sam stick his camera's up every body's azz??? You some sort of closet proctologist? Drones are for SPYING on targets, period. When did US citizen's become random targets? Regardless of whether one HAS something to hide or not? The SOLE purpose of developing the drones ( which are friggin expensive to build, maintain, and hide ) IS TO spy. End of that point. they start using them in US airspace, a collision WILL occur. The date of the FIRST airborn mishap just hasn't been determined yet...........
Coral is most likely a plant sent here to tell people to "embrace the drone". There is no reason for any ordinary citizen to be for this kind of technology in our skies let alone to go on a public message board and call everyone against it silly, fearmongering, etc
@ Philip' I am not "embracing the drone" just reacting to the "government is going to spy on us "thing. People act like there is some conspiracy in the government to watch us.lol Just absurd. This is what I am trying to point out.
@ Burk; Sir you got a beating.lol but that is the past let us move forward.
@ Hartvig, Nice, not far from u of c, and his clan of sympathizers.
Out of hundreds of hot air post nooone substantiates what they say.I back up every thing I say, yet the facts get ignored. I am beginning to think you guys want the government to come look into your homes, just so you will be right.lol
Please just one example of how a drone can personally take your freedom, if you do not deserve it to be taken. Just one!!
@ Hartvig "I simply cannot fathom how people can not only be indifferent to but seemingly hellbent on discarding the very liberties that are the ONLY thing that make our nation any different from any of the above."
According, to Coral Taxi, everything will be just fine because apparently he's the only person who has any facts or knowledge. *guffaw*
According to our Bill of Rights, however, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Unfortunately, our founding fathers couldn't foresee drones spying on people, so there isn't a specific amendment to cover that.
As technology advances, our freedoms erode further and further. Even for a law abiding person, that should be alarming because government and industry are overstepping their bounds and encroaching into people's private lives in ways that were unheard of just a few years ago..
Some people are keenly aware that these fundamental freedoms are all but gone and other people just want to remain oblivious to that.
# crying; Okay now give me a way that the drone will personally afffect your life, reciting the bill of rights, is not an example, not one on his vine has yet to give a personal example.
Wow really, give me one example of this happening.I am still free as ever. Like all the others you say what could happen, not how it could happen.
Still not one example of how a drone can affect you or your daily life, any of you, Personally. I have shown you how they are already on top of securing our rights with this new technology, but you guys would rather leave the tin foil on, so I have failed.
Look out the government is after you!! lol My Lord
"Personally. I have shown you how they are already on top of securing our rights with this new technology"
From your post at 11.12
"There already is control, not some random snoop trying to get in your business.lol You may now take the tin foil off.Please educate yourselves before overreacting"
@ hartvig; I am not saying an example is impossible, but please give me one PERSONAL example of how a drone could take away your rights or freedoms. I am not for warrantless anything, my point is that the government is not going to be wasting their time on you and me.
O.K please tell me the harm.
Evreyone says how bad this will be for them, but not one,not one, gives an example of how this could happen to them personally, are they following you to the mall, or grandmas for Christmas. I might be alone, but I am right, and have backed my talk up with examples, unlike all the others who argue the point with me.
They just say what could happen, but have no clue how it could happen.lol
@ Coral Taxi
Perhaps I misinterpreted your post above and jumped on the cost aspect.
But regardless, it's circular reasoning on your part to automatically assume that with new technology comes new oversight, when in most instances in the past where new technology has become available, it took several notable points of abuse BEFORE there were rules and regulations put in place to prevent such abuses.
Example:
Ultimately, I guess you and I reach the same conclusion...that there must be rules and regulations regarding the use of newer high-tech equipment and techniques. But I contend that you are still skipping a step by automatically assuming that these enforcement agencies are capable of self-regulating and will thus impose all of the necessary measures preemptively of a series of appellate judges doing it for them
@ serious; Of course I am against any invasion of privacy, that is not warranted. Most on this vine are railing on the government like they are the kgb, it is just ridiculous. With new technology of course their should be new rules.
Before any information is taken by a drone on an individual should be approved by a judge, just as the F.BI ,must be given authorization for surveillance, so should the drones surveillance. These thing need to come to pass.
My point to all the viners whom say the government is going to spy on them,is that it is ridiculous, which is why out of hundreds not one can give me an example of how a drone would follow them and spy on them, or why would it.
Police and appointed officials have been known to abuse power in the past, using their influence in their departments to harass people that they sometimes personally dislike or that create inconveniences. There are other interesting instances where police departments knowingly break state laws for their own gains, sometimes harassing/intimidating their own into following suit.
Without proper controls and checks, it is entirely possible that an officer could briefly utilize a UAV to spy on their spouse/neighbor or any other person that they wish to target. The neat thing about these types of drones is how well they can "sniff out" a target all from their own sensory equipment.
I personally have never had any trouble with the law, but I would be fearful of an angry police officer who was hellbent on abusing their authority to ruin my day. I'd rather make it harder for them to do so beyond what they are already capable of.
@ serious;
Sounds like an episode pf 24. All flights are logged,and tracked,I doubt this would be possible, if it did happen the officer surely would be fired, misuse is one thing, government spying on citizens is another.
And it's not like police departments ever try to suppress disclosing their activities, right?
Yes sir, it is a big conspiracy,all the way from McGarrett to Nixon.lol
-_-
you could at least acknowledge where I'm right rather than poorly try to deflect.
@ serious; Dont be so serious, You will get no argument from me that misuse is possible, I acknowledged your misuse. I just dont believe the police will be on the take when it comes to the drone to the degree you do. I am not deflecting, my point has been made as has been yours. If you were not making sense, I would of quit with you long ago, I can handle someone disagreeing, I just cant handle people that talk out their arse, or go to insults, when they are successfully challenged. As I have been beat up before also.ie Having my point proven wrong, or changing my perspective.
You are serious about what you say. No pun intended.
Just having fun after 2 days of debate. Book em Dano! lol
I think some of my writings can come across as more extreme than I feel...I am generally an optimist, just cynically optimistic.
I just feel that we all need to be vigilant against expanding the potential for abuse, and just like with any sort of negotiation, be it business, or negotiating adapting a new technology into an existing framework, always start higher than you think the other party would buy-in, because you know they are going to try and bargain you down.
Your prior statement however was a bit crass
Likewise
^_^
You certainly make plenty of good arguments and it was a pleasure debating with you.
Coral-
You've been asking for a specific example and apparently my cataloging of the abuses of the Miami police department didn't satisfy you so I'll give you a possible scenario:
I've said above that I come from North Dakota. Right now commodity (think corn & wheat) prices are good and land prices are high and land for sale is scarce. Buying land that's for sale is expensive but trying to buy land that someone doesn't need or particularly want to sell can add another 50% to the price of that land.
My niece's husband owns a little over 100 acres of land worth around $175,000. He's also a mechanical engineer and owns and runs a manufacturing company that employs around 50 people. He farms just because that's what he grew up doing and he enjoys it. It does bring in a little money but not really enough to justify the time spent. While he doesn't want to sell the land he has said that if someone were to offer him $250,000 or thereabouts he would at least have to consider selling.
You may not be aware that a lot of farm land abuts things like rivers and slews and ravines and small groves of trees. Many of these places are well off of any road and not even visible from a tractor on the tillable land.
So you have a young deputy sheriff working in the area. He too grew up on a farm and would like to get back into it himself but his parents are years away from retiring themselves. However they would be willing to back a loan for some land but it would have to be in the same area as their farm, which he will eventually inherit but there is none for sale and they don't want to pay 50% over market price to get some.
He's also aware of the drones overflight schedules and what they are looking for. He's familiar with the lay of the land from years of hunting. He hikes into a remote, secluded spot on Cristopher's land that's not visible from the road or the tillable land, clears a little area and plants some marijuana. A meth lab would be even better but it would be harder to detect from the air and would require some sort of structure- and if you're a farmer what ever materials you need to set up a meth lab that you don't already have you can buy at any Walmart- but we've decided that we're going with pot. He goes back a few times to cultivate and weed, all the while avoiding the drones because he knows their schedules. And he waits. Maybe he tells a few of his co-workers that he's heard that Cristopher (my niece's husband) might somehow be involved with drugs. Maybe he even busts some high school kid and tells him he'll let him off if he spreads that rumor around. But that would be risky. Maybe he won't even have to tip off the state Narcotic Task Force. Maybe it will find the crop on it's own. If it doesn't, he just puts in a word with the sheriff and he has the drone take a look. And lo and behold, what do they find? And shortly later, the DEA and Task Force are at my niece's door with loaded guns drawn. And then charges are filed. And they need to get a lawyer. And lawyers, especially in criminal cases, are damned expensive. So the land goes up for sale and our conniving deputy sheriff saves himself $80,000 when he buys it.
Unlikely? Of course.
But that doesn't matter because they shouldn't have been looking there in the first place. If they had to get a warrant then someone would have questioned the high school kid or have wanted to talk to whoever was supposedly saying that Cristopher was in some way involved. And the whole thing would have been exposed for what it was.
It's a crime for someone look through your drawn windows or to tap your phone conversations. It should also be criminal for the police to do the same unless they have first shown probable cause and procured a warrant. And that's exactly what they're doing when these drones fly over your property wether you are the intended target or not.
@ hartvig; Wow, that is a pretty eloborate scenario, and story, sounds like another made for t.v movie, not being sarcastic, good plot. I see where it is possible. I am not arguing the fact that these things can happen such as this. I am arguing the point that the government is not spying on us with drones, because they fear us, and are trying to take our freedoms away.
I would imagine that you are fair game if you are outside in public, your backyard might be another story, but you are still obviouisly exposed there also.
One obvious solution would be a slingshot, pellet gun. One good rock would knock most of these "unmanned planes" out of the air. You just say you were scared, and felt your security was at risk, if you actually knock one down. For alot of these viners it would be the absolute truth.lol
When drones start looking in our windows, then I will make a call to arms, so to speak, at the present I am not too concerned, but as I was reminded earlier, we should not even allow a slip in our rights, for it could lead to losing more than one. I cant argue with that. The question still remains are the domestic drones that slip?
We shall see.I really do not think so, if it turns out they are, and they start to abuse our right to privacy, then it is Supreme court time. Believe me upholding our rights, will go alot farther than someone trying to catch a drug dealer, or a fence, with the Supreme court, believe me.
@ Serious; Thank you, you also. I have gained new perspective from your posts.Yes I can be a snit and strike nerves, but it is never in anger or hate, just the heat of the debate.
What do I get if I shoot one down?
Guantanamo!
20 years and a bill for 2 million dollars
The House nd Senate just passed NDAA.
R.I.P Bill of rights.
Ashes to Ashes, dust to Dust.
Such overreactions. The drones = the new KGB, I think not.
@Coral Taxi
Better a tin foil hat then a dunce cap.
LOL that's a good one
@ BENR; Not really, ignorance can be fixed, paranoia usually can not. Although I am trying my best
@coral taxi
Willful ignorance can't be fixed and just because your paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you.
Such overreactions. The drones = the new KGB, I think not.
Coral — you are right, not the new KGB.......the same old one with new toys.
I live in a Military Operation Area (MOA) and there are planes overhead frequently. I have seen drones of all descriptions, helicopters, cargo planes and some unidentifiable craft over a period of almost 20 years. Since I have nothing to hide and don't go around performing illegal acts, I enjoy the show. If you are afraid of drones watching you, you apparently have something to hide. If you're afraid of losing your privacy, maybe you should wear clothes at all times when outdoors and close your window blinds at night.
I think the point of high school US history class is to prevent anyone from developing the thought process you have.
Also, although I don't engage in the activity myself, I fail to see why you have the right to order others to wear clothes, especially on top of their own houses.
mathuin, you are one of the people that won't even notice or maybe care when you wake up in 1984. The "if you haven't done anything wrong" statement is a cop out meaning you are to afraid to demand your right to privacy.
You are a very good little comrade, seig heil. Have you been chiped yet???
Living in a MOA is one thing. Having the local police fly overhead is... well overboard.
I have nothing to hide, but the "police powers" are getting a little out of hand. Read my post below (#30) and see if you want to change you mind.
Even a US Senator is afraid of what that legislation allows.
Drones the gateway drug to spying
You know what happened in 1938 to the people that thought that they were Germans first and Jews second; they have their shoes on display in Auschwitz.
I'm sure you have nothing to hide, so I guess it won't be a problem if you're searched.
Enjoy
12 deleted, Eugene Saxe grenade-trolling:
Nowhere to go from there.
You're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Folks, drones are truly the least of your problems.
Here's some reading for your pleasure. Before you read it, let me summarize it briefly. The Posse Commitatus Act, prohibiting US Military action against US Citizens on US soil is being shredded. The passage of the NDAA will permit the Military to perform Law Enforcement actions on US soil against US citizens without any protection of due process. They can imprison you for as long as they like.... and no-one, your family or friends included will know where you are. You will simply disappear. This bill shreds the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th Amendments to the Constitution. Be informed. This has ALREADY gone through Joint Conference and is soon to be voted on. One of my Senators, Jim Webb (D), former Marine Office and Secretary of the Navy is also opposed to this legislation. He unsuccessfully tried to get this language stripped from the NDAA. Maybe if enough of you contact YOUR senators and representatives there is still time to stop this travesty.
And then there's this:
http://www.theopenglobe.org/wiki/US_Senate_passes_its_version_of_NDAA_bill,_which_would_allow_military_to_detain_anyone_on_US_soil
PLEASE REMEMBER the words of Benjamin Franklin:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Please go to an OFFICIAL Senate or House of Representative site as I did to verify the truth of the above.
Our Constitution is being shredded before our eyes and we sit back and allow it.
I've been following this SH IT very closely.If people on this board and in this country don't WAKE THE HELL UP AND GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES AND START SCREAMING ABOUT THIS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY, they're going to be driving or walking down the street one of these find days and literally get kidnapped and shipped off to some prison in East Bumfuch some where.
THIS IS VERY SERIOUS STUFF PEOPLE!IS THIS THE WAY YOU WANT TO LIVE WITH A CHINESE CRIMINAL STYLE GOVERNMENT?THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE STARTING TO PATTERN THIS GOVERNMENT AFTER.
Don't believe me or Xdm9mm?Wait it gets better,and that's no BS either!
I know the STUPID MUFFLED CONTROLED MEDIA HAS BEEN TIGHTED LIPPED!
I learned about this last week on this board.I went on the internet to get more info, and there it was as bright as day.Something has to be done,and McCain, Graham,and Mckeon and Levin you forgot Levin should all be thrown in Jail for TREASON!
Paranoia mean destroyah.
Soon your highway speed WILL be checked by aircraft. Your ticket will be in the mail.
Just wait........you will be videotaped and your picture will be taken EVERY TIME YOU USE YOUR COMPUTER, with software installed without your knowledge or consent, courtesy of our intrusive government. SO BLOCK OUT YOUR WEBCAM.
Think I'm making this up???? It's already happening in other countries.
Wait other countries?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/18/harriton-high-school-spie_n_467491.html
Harriton High School Used Laptop Webcams To SPY On Students At Home, Suit Alleges
it's already the case in France.
Soon??? You mean its already checked by air and the ticket has already been paid.
no need to wait its here an also why there putting all those camera up Driving used to be a right like a cover wagon but all the progressive liberal got together an pass laws that driving is a privileges so let the ticket fly good revenues maker,
They'll also be able to see through the walls of your home & monitor your every move
So? Stop speeding. Problem solved. I have news for you, and for everyone else on this thread whining about drones -- it is not your right to do whatever you can get away with.
This country is so far overboard about "privacy" that it is pathetic. You'll sacrifice anything and everything so long as you get to continue watching your donkey pr0n (or, for the real degenerates, soap operas) without anyone knowing. You people are so hell bent on not letting anyone know even the most insignificant detail of your lives that you forget you are not an island. There is no such thing as a society of individuals. You want utter privacy? Go live in a shack in the woods, grow your own food, weave your own clothes, and clean up your own wastes. No one will know a single thing about you. If you want to be a part of society, though, and benefit from the many good things it brings, you have to accept some responsibility for it as well.
People always act more responsibly and more maturely when they think others are watching. When someone's behavior becomes public, they tend to clean it up, fast. Wouldn't it be great if people acted that way just because it was the right thing to do?
And I'm sure there will be plenty of people here to call me a "sheeple" or some other equally ridiculous name. Judging by the knee-jerk reactions here, I'm a lot freer thinker than most of you. I've just come to a different conclusion: that I really don't care if people know what I'm doing. I honestly do not care. And the reason I can afford not to care is because I don't do anything that I don't want anyone else to find out about.
The only real reason to care so violently about privacy is when your stated values and your actions are out of alignment, and you want to keep the latter a secret to avoid being embarrassed. Well, tough. Personally I hate hypocrites of all shapes and sizes, and I'm looking forward to seeing them all exposed.
...and you are probably one of those "I do THE speed limit" persons, but then go through stop signs, red lights, no turn signals, don't yield, no use of headlamps in the fog, doesn't keep right, obstructs traffic, etc......while the cop is sitting in a "patrol" car with the idiotic radar waiting to give someone going over the speed limit a frivolous speeding ticket, while the "good" driver doing the usually unrealistic speed limit goes through a red light past the speed trap and either kills someone or seriously maims them.
Remember - Speeding is usually NEVER the cause of an accident, it can be a contributing factor, but it is usually one of the aforementioned reasons that the so-called "I always do the speed limit and am a safe driver" people that causes almost all accidents.
Instead of police officers focusing on drivers exceeding the speed limit, they should be pulling over those that constantly do the speed limit, as most drivers that always do the speed limit are either Drunk/Drugged, Suspended/Revoked, Carrying Contraband, Non-Licensed, or just plain CANNOT DRIVE.
All motor vehicle accidents ought to be investigated by independent investigators, otherwise, as is now the case, almost all accidents have Speeding as the cause of accidents - even though, as seen in some cases, the driver was high on drugs or went through a Stop Sign, the cause was noted by the police officer as speeding.
Don't forget, the more accidents noted with the cause as speeding, the more police officers are put on radar duty, usually on an Overtime Basis, and the more unnecessary fines and fees motorist must pay for something that make no one any safer - we rather have the police officers out there patrolling our neighborhoods and making sure our homes are secure and families save from criminals.
I'm surprised that so many of you people are so willing to give up your right to pivacy. What other rights are you willing to give up? The government just keeps chipping away at the stone that this country was founded upon and you people just lay down and say it's for the better. Obviously you think it is better to let the government decide what your rights should be because you aren't smart enough to decide for yourselves.
This drives me bat sh*t crazy when people do this!
Yes and they will continue to vote these fools to office.
1984 George Orwell.
We already have them, They are better known as Elected officials
the new drones read EEG's or brainwaves, if they you think a certian way, they will target you to the homeland security and Janet will take a dump on you
Hey don't worry just get the Iranians to bring it down!!! lmao!!!