It should have been stopped as soon as they advocated the violent overthrow of the American government on their official chatsite (allegedly over one thousand people on it--but who trusts OWS with numbers--they think 20,000 is 99% of 312 million!). The US used to see communism as a threat. I guess if it's over, it's not a threat. Thank the Lord!

Did the tax code change? Are even foreign owned corporations still considered American citizens?

Has unemployment gone down, or the congress done ANYTHING to address the financial crisis that so many Americans face?

Than expect to see more protests.

While the protesters for OWS have a range of financial issues they want addressed, they agree that the only way forward is for non violent protest.

Get a grip

truejoy you can't add up nimbers you have no clue about. There's alot of supporters who are quiet for whatever reason. All revolutions start out small, i say the government needs to start paying attention before this goes too far and I don't mean shut them up forcefully but start giving a @!$%# about our country before they ruin it permanently

"We can definitely claim a victory," said Mike Yaroschuk, who was in the process of dismantling his tent. "We've opened a lot of minds, hearts and eyes."

Well, at least he thinks he's done something with his life. Self-esteem is a wonderful thing. All I see is a lot of angry people on both sides and nothing being accomplished.

These OWS protesters are just a bunch of people sitting around with their hands out waiting for the nanny state to take care of them. Well guess what, life does not work that way. No one is guaranteed the American Dream, the only thing that is guaranteed is the right to pursue that dream through your own hard work and ambition. No one owes you anything except your right to live free and pursue your own dreams, so long as you do not infringe on others rights in doing so. No one owes you a house, no one owes you a job, no one owes you a college education. These are all things you must work for to get. Most of the rich got that way through their own hard work, perseverance, and sacrifice; they did not have it handed to them. Granted, some inherited their wealth, but somewhere along the line someone in their family worked to generate that wealth, it did not magically appear. Try reading about the sacrifices that some of the founders of big companies made to get their business started. Many of them barely scraped by for long periods of time while pursuing their dreams until the hard work started to pay off. You have no right to share in their wealth or demand that they give you some of that money unless you do something to earn it from them. Sitting on your azz in some park does not earn you anything. No one is going to forgive your student loans because you spent $50,000 majoring in art history and can't find a job. Why should those of us who studied subjects that actually had a career path attached to them and put in all the work now support you because you made a bad choice and took a easy fluff major so you could party all through school. This entitlement attitude needs to end. People need to get used to taking care of themselves again instead of looking to the government to take care of them.

dan-4259216

Did the tax code change? Are even foreign owned corporations still considered American citizens?

Has unemployment gone down, or the congress done ANYTHING to address the financial crisis that so many Americans face?...

Dan-4259216,

You have stated excellent points.

During the Civil Rights movement of the 1960, the Civil Rights protesters were also considered "troublemakers." These 1960 pioneers left a historic example of how to bring positive change to America. Although Wall Street, the Big Banks and Corporate America caused America's abysmal economic collapse - the folks that are committed to inequality or those that are lacking the facts will continue to support the fraudulent behavior of these 3 entities.

Occupy Wall Street has changed the national narrative for this country.

If critically needed economic, political and social policies changes are made in our land - our middle class will be sustained and the poor will avoid being annihilated.

Unless he is one of the 1%...it is "Grant Y" who needs to get a grip.

25Walker - thanks for your thoughtful reply

The so-called OWS people are so needy for attention, they are willing to give themselves up to the Police as "Sacrifical Lambs"

How stupid; in the end, they will regret getting arrested. It goes on their record for everything, including trying to get a job. Employers do not hire Troublemakers.

Watching for the results of the LA Arrests---what a bunch of immature souls. Where are their Parents?

They are children, you know.

Since when are protesters that exercise their freedom to protest corruption and greed troublemakers?

I guess the king of England had that same opinion of the early Americans....

Ray in Jax:

They are lucky to be living in America, not Iran. It would be sheer death upon arrival in the jails of Rogue Countries. How about Mexico, Aruba, Yemen, Egypt, or Syria, and others..

These kids will probably be out in 5 hrs.---the trouble they have caused will stay on their arrest record for many years---and then some.

Mark T-731621

The little OWS thing is still going on?

Yes. I just saw a little girl run by. She was chasing a rabbit. She was asking the rabbit "what tea party"?

You know, if they really wanted to accomplish something, they should all go to Washington, DC and occupy K Street where all of the lobbyists work. Lobbyists are the reason that the US government has essentially handed its leash to big business. Its legal bribery and the reason why corporations will always have a louder voice than everyone else - they have more money.

Everybody in the movement - from Wall Street in New York, to Philadelphia, to Oakland, to LA, to Atlanta, should all hitchhike to DC and sit in the middle of K Street. The movement would be called OKS.

If it happens, remember who came up with the idea first.

It's funny how even the complainers cannot complain about the same thing. Either they are all violent or they are all sitting around doing nothing. *giggles*

There have been very few violent actions and most of those by the police officers as shown in videos. The banks that some have entered have been ones they have accounts in that they were taking their money out of or that they went in and made a speech before being arrested...no violence involved.

I also find it very suspect that the same people seem to have the same amount of support for their posts on every article they write in and they seem to be the first people to write on all articles that have to do with the Occupy movement. I hope you and your group are paid well or do you just keep a dozen or so extra email accounts for making sure you get stars on your posts?

Don't expect the Occupy protesters to go away. Just because the news media has slowed down on reporting about them doesn't mean they aren't all still there.

I read post in Facebook about meetings around the world from these groups inviting people to come out for meetings all the time. I think it's good to show you have staying power and an ability NOT to be violent with your beliefs.

One of the reasons some groups have gotten thinner is because of the colder weather and because a lot of them do have jobs and only come out during their off days to help out.

On the marching on Washington, that has been done too. There was an article of how a group marched from Wall Street in NYC to Washington DC to protest. Please keep up.

As all American citizens, they have a right to protest peacefully. If they don't mind getting arrested, why should you mind?

So dan-4259216, do you think everyone who has become successful in life, did so by lying and cheating?

No jpeg, the protests are about the way the financial "system" works. Did you already forget that Goldman Sachs intentionally bundled bad mortgages, got them rated AAA, sold them for top dollar, then bet against them (conflict of interest anyone?).

They made even MORE money when the bad investments failed.

Why should they work hard to make money, when they can be lazy about it AND be MORE wealthy as a result!

Dan-4259216 -

and let us not forget this bit published by Bloomberg yesterday:

Secret Fed Loans Gave Banks Undisclosed $13B

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-28/secret-fed-loans-undisclosed-to-congress-gave-banks-13-billion-in-income.html

And, the media toadies continue to give daily coverage to these freeloaders, despite the fact that we don't want to hear any more about them.

Remember folks, the conservative/Republican mantra is: "I've got mine, so F--K you!!"

Close but it is I have worked hard to get mine and you can do the same. But that would mean actually getting your hands dirty, Maybe even getting a blister or two and possibly even breaking a sweat.

That's right, I earned what I have so go out and earn yours instead being a gimme wannabe.. Plenty of jobs in North Dakota and Alabama.

Other than that, go occupy Capitol Hill and The White House where the real problem is or would that biting the hand that supports you.

Too much making sense there lost.

Tad...

The White House would definitely be considered 'off limits' for these protesters...they would surely not want to contribute to any possibility that Mr. Obama might be part of the problem with our economy or let the media look more closely at how much money the president rakes in on campaign donations from the evil "wealthy" folks who supposedly aren't paying their "fair share".

JS in SD

the only thing that is guaranteed is the right to pursue that dream through your own hard work and ambition.

The problem is that there is no way to do that anymore. The jobs aren't there, and our government is so corrupt our rights as individuals are ignored over the lobbyists money.

Sure, Lost, I support your premise. You've "worked hard", so there's absolutely no need to feel bad for those down on their luck, right?

A man works his entire adult life to support himself, and then loses his job for the sake of his company's outsourcing. Because he can no longer afford the mortgage he has been paying on for 25 years, he loses his house. Then he goes hungry. Then he asks for help after being unable to find more employment.

So, Lost (and others), how far would you go to help this person? Would you help at all? Or is he just another casualty in the war for dollars in our country?

Lemme guess. You'd purposely NOT pay into any social safety net because it is a waste of your tax dollars for these "freeloaders". Or you assume that some local church will have the means and gumption to help this proverbial person. Either way, would YOU get involved? And any repercussions for the company that screwed him out of a job, or is that just "all's fair in love, war, (and now) business"?

The problem is that most of you on this site are too shallow or shortsighted to understand that this is NOT a problem of too many lazy people. It is a problem with the entire system that rewards corporate profits over the welfare of the very society that has enriched said company.

The problem is that there is no way to do that anymore

Thats laughable, people from all over the world come here and find work, Some come legally and some sneak across our borders, They find work and make lives for themselves, If this were not true then we would not have the 20 million illegals problem we currently have, The problem with some and I say some because it is not the majority just a noisy minority is that they want instant success, They want that big house, that high paying job, that expensive car and they want it now, Those things can be had but it takes time and hard work, Something the noisy minority want to avoid.

What rights has your government ignored? You do not have a rigth to instant success, you have a right to go out and try to make something of your life and that right includes the right to fail and not be given a free ride.

Indy,

Your premise is bogus. If a man is working his entire adult to support himself and his family and he is still paying on his house after 25 years, then that man has one of two problems. He is either has not ever gotten a raise in his lifetime, or hasn't learned how to budget so that he can stop paying on his house. I have a friend that is in that same predicament and I feel sorry for him. He is a hard worker, but when the times were good, he was spending money. When the economy took a hit, now he has to tighten the belt.

Do I agree that it is that guy's fault that he is losing his house? Yes. Absolutely it is his fault. He could have made better decisions with his money to be prepared for unemployment.

Is it the company's fault for outsourcing? Yes. They were trying to make more money. There is nothing wrong with a company trying to make more money. It has become more profitable to make your product overseas and ship it back to the consumers in the US. Maybe a part of the reason for the jobs being sent overseas is the expensive union labor, maybe a part of the reason for the jobs being sent overseas is expensive regulations that impede the ability to work efficiently.

As for not paying into a social safety net, it's not the final destination of the money that is the issue. It is the transit of the money that is an issue for me. The government takes a dollar and half gets wasted on bureaucratic mumbo jumbo. So yes, I would rather pay that money to a charity/church where 95% goes directly to help people.

As for being involved, yes I am involved in charity activities. I have spent time helping those that can't do for themselves.

I helped do tornado cleanup after the tornadoes in Alabama. I saw two types of people. The ones that sat on the porch and watched us work, and the ones that were out there that helped us help them.

You believe that the problem is not too many lazy people. I only partially agree with that statement. There are lazy people that mooch off the system until they are threatened with starvation.

When you say all's fair in love, war, (and now) business, was there anything illegal going on? If not, then it was just doing business. Running a business is a war. The strong/wise survive. The weak and unprepared do not.

@LostInThePineBarrens It's true that some want a free ride...those are usually the ones stealing the working people's money. Most of the protesters are just asking for the same rights we had when we were younger and starting out. Jobs available to get and be able to even pay to get to work, let alone afford to have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. I wish my son had the same opportunities as I did when I got out of school. But those opportunities ended when corporations took the jobs overseas and shutdown mom and pop businesses that used to hire people right out of school. The same corporations getting money to bail them out by the federal government, but not hiring more employees, instead laying off more.

Laughable is your thinking things are as they were before all the deregulations that took away our rights to be able to making a living. Look at all the studies that show how income has barely gone up, but expenses have gone up over 300 percent in the past 20 years.

I wish the children of today had it as good as when I was young and I hope that the Occupy movement can make a difference before I have grandchildren that will suffer for the mistakes made by our generation. Letting wars be started on the basis of a lie and wanting to keep spending even though the war is over. Many military people will tell you of the waste when they have to use up all the extra ammunition at the end of the year to be sure they get more money for more weapons next year. Waste is all around us and eating away at our tax dollars.

Bohn, most people in America have a 30-year mortgage, hence the example I gave previously. The rest of your post is just ideological drivel supporting the very things I railed against in my first post.

You have yours, good for you. Now you want to give everyone else the finger because their problems don't impact you at all. No problem. I hope you get laid off and have to go pick harvests because "jobs are available to those willing to work". Let's see how easy life goes for you when the shoe is on the other foot.

The cops and local governments only encourage this type of behavior by the way they are coddling them. They corralled them back to the park and told them they would not be arrested there. It's time to end this little temper tantrum. It is accomplishing NOTHING that the protesters envisioned, and is only hurting the 99% that they pretend to represent. It's been fun, kids, but it's time to join the adult world now.

If you want to do something semi-productive, at least go pretest in front of the white house, the capital, or K street where the lobbyists ply their trade. This is where the laws and regulations come from that allow all the stuff on Wall Street you don't like.

When will Occupy Wall Street start their protests against professional sports?

Here is a recent average salary for the major sports

• Basketball (NBA) -- $5,000,000
• Baseball (MLB) -- $2,800,000
• Football (NFL) -- $1,750,000
• Hockey (NHL) -- $1,500,000
• Men's Golf -- $973,495
• Women's Tennis -- $345,000
• Men's Tennis -- $260,000
• Women's Golf -- $162,043

These people are all in that 1 percent they are railing against.....

Mind you these are the players, not management making these average salaries....

I understand the 30 year mortgage thing. But unless you paid the minimum every month, never paid an additional dime, more than likely most people would be able to pay off their mortgages in less than the 30 years.

I currently have mine. Yes that's true, but knowing that I have the potential to lose it all, I am scrimping and saving and trying to prevent my family from starving when/if that happens. I have food storage in case of an emergency. (but that's just crazy ideological drivel) By the end of next year, I will have all my debts (minus the mortgage) paid off. I will own my cars (not new). I will then be able to decide whether or not we want to begin (for the first time in our 10 year marriage) subscribing cable TV.

I also have worked in the fields detasseling when I was a teenager. I have worn that shoe. I talk the talk, and walk the walk.

And wishing that I get laid off is one of the kindest things anyone has said to me during this season of thanksgiving and christmas spirit. Thanks.

I hope you get laid off and have to go pick harvests because "jobs are available to those willing to work". Let's see how easy life goes for you when the shoe is on the other foot.

What an absolutely horrible thing to say to someone. You should be ashamed of yourself.

@bohnmann - Good for you. May you have a lovely holiday with your family. Before you jump into cable, look into Hulu or services like it :-)

bohnmann, not everyone makes as much money as you... and not everyone gets to keep their job like you did. Believe it or not not everyone who had it bad just didnt have a job afterwards... they got lower paying jobs that they were basically just digging themselves a hole with.

And yeah most jobs nowadays don't offer the competitive wages anymore, they don't offer overtime, and alot of times even full time. Some people just get it worse than others.

Alot of people worked in the fields as kids, including myself... don't try to act like it makes you someone different than the rest of us. Try growing and detasseling tobacco... makes any crop look like a home garden in comparison.

and PH, bohnmann was being just as cruel just with a different demographic... I didn't realize you thought wishing evil things was only ok if its with people who aren't as "good" as you.

Besides the guy was obviously making a point, and not being serious about it... but sure, make your troll comment.

hobbyshop it was never about people's salaries being too high...

if you don't understand that, well thats on you.

And by the way, no I don't care if you disagree with me... it doesn't make you right if you counter my argument with conservative talking points.

I actually do not wish any ill will towards Bohnmann or anyone else. My statement was meant to prove a point, nothing else.

But it doesn't matter, anyways. No matter what I say on this forum it WILL be twisted and spun to mean something completely different. Bohnmann, I certainly DO wish you a Happy Thanksgiving, and a Merry Christmas. I just wonder if you feel the same way for all the people who will go without this holiday season........

Eddie, I am not a troll. No need to throw around insults - I wasn't talking to you.

I went back and read bohnman's comments. Perhaps you didn't like what he had to say, or you take a different position, but I don't see cruelty anywhere. Regardless of your beliefs, it's a terrible thing to wish people hardship. I must be SUCH a troll for thinking that way.

Indy,

Completely respect your post. Happy holidays to you and yours.

Yes there are rich who have worked hard for their money. That is not the issue, it is the poor and middle class that have worked hard to have some rich take take take............ you might think you have not been effected but you only lie to yourself.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-28/secret-fed-loans-undisclosed-to-congress-gave-banks-13-billion-in-income.html

You say "get a job you lazy people"........ well for one...where???? To that I add to all of the people

who would rather hide their heads in the sand..... Fighting for our freedom is the hardest job we can ever have.....complacency has become way to exceptable..it is time to wake up before all of our freedoms and rights are taken from us.

Eddie,

So it's all about how they make their money and not whether or not they pay their 'just' taxes???

Interesting counter there.

I guess selective protests are okay, not whether or not the salaries are high..

WOW.... 8 trillion more...... this is ridiculous

http://rt.com/usa/news/fed-trillion-reserve-bailout-401/

Eddie,

I know that not everyone makes as much money as me. I also don't make as much money as others. I'm not even close to six figures, but I have almost doubled my salary since entering the workforce. I didn't get that by just skating by to collect my next paycheck. I worked overtime and different shifts including the third shift. I got a college degree in a scientific field that almost always has openings and will not get shipped overseas. I do know a person that got laid off during the recession that I worked with. She struggled to get new employment, but I always had my ear out for new jobs in the industry. She worked several jobs (in her field for less pay) and now has a better job than the one she got laid off from.

People that are "digging themselves a hole with lower paying jobs" are definitely the ones that I would want "social programs" to help. But they have to help themselves as well. I have known unemployed/underemployed that have flat screen TV's, dish network, new cell phones, new cars. I don't believe that they shouldn't have those things, but I don't believe that the government (me) should have to pay for them to be able to continue to live at the level they were living at before being laid off. I will not tell them that they need to sell their car, get rid of dish, or downgrade cell phones. That is a personal choice. But some people do make poor choices.

So what is a competitive wage? I thought we lived in a capitalistic system. A competitive wage is what a company pays it's empolyees and remains staffed. If you have 100 people that want one job and one is willing to work for half what another one is willing to work for, guess who gets the job.

My reason for bringing up detasseling is to let indy know that I am familiar with the rigors of "farm labor". Not to prove that I am special.

So, What did I say that was just as cruel? I never attacked another viner or wished ill on another viner. I said that there are consequences for your actions and people should prepare better. Indy was trying to make a point, but did so by attacking me.

If you can't find a job............ go out and create your own. These OWS people and their ilk make me sick, since when does anyone "owe" you anything. I started off with nothing but the clothes on my back [literally] and I've busted my butt for everything I've got. When times were tight I did whatever I had to to survive. A crappy job is still a job, it also provides you with something called "incentive", that is the motivation to do better, to improve your lot in life.

Start your own business, work long hours to build it, then we'll see how you feel about people that feel you owe them something.

There is definitely a problem here, but, I and many others believe that the problem is a government that can't control spending, is corrupted by corporate money and is no longer serving the people of this country.

Ows people make you sick???

There is definitely a problem here, but, I and many others believe that the problem is a government that can't control spending, is corrupted by corporate money and is no longer serving the people of this country

Seems you and OWS have the same opinion, they have chosen to take it to the streets and peacefully fight for this injustice and freedom to do so. I recommend you look at their web sites........This " corporate money" is #1 on the list.....

This is one of thousands of videos....the info is out there if you look...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FER-k8MNm2w&feature=share

Gypsy...

I guess the one thing that cannot be "looked" at...is any post put on this thread that does not not wrap it's arms around the 'OWS' protesters. I just opened a half dozen "collapsed by the community" comments...all were not supportive of the protesters.

"Freedom of Speech" had been one of the defenses of these protests. I guess "Freedom of Speech" must be located on a one-way street.

they think 20,000 is 99% of 312 million

And I bet you think polls of 1,000 are representative of 312 million, too, as long as you agree with the results.

@tony-268769: The first amendment guarantees the government cannot limit free speech. Private blogs/forums/whatever can. However, if you were able to read the posts, then they were not censored. Therefore, even Newsvine did not limit the posters' freedom of speech. You just had to click an extra time.

Tony, I'm of a Libertarian persuasion, and also feel that too many posts are collapsed by the community. Some with more than 50 approvals. Many of these posts are not of a vitriolic nature, ... just of a different opinion than others.

To be fair, many pro-OWS posts are collapsed as well. Why collapse ANY posts? It's a free country ... still? Isn't it?

Also, it would be nice if we could dispense with the childish personal attacks. I know that's asking too much. :)

They are fine until they break the law. Then pepper spray, arrests and all that are fine with me.

I was on their side a bit untill I had trouble getting to work or the bank because they want to have fun in the streets.

If someone blocks a car with their body, it should be ok to drive over them.

Jim...

I agree...."why collapse any posts". I can see the 'site doctors' dumping anything obscene, threatening, or vulgar....that would be understandable. But collapsing posts on one side of any arguement....well...I guess the idea is to end the conversation at one's self absorbed whim. Kind of does stifle debate !

And to your last line...never going to happen. I've been told more than once just how stupid my opinion on a topic is....whether said opinion is actually stupid or not.

Based on what I have seen, posts that are seen as inflammatory/no value/advertising (and flagged as such) are the ones that get collapsed. It appears that a certain number of marks of inflammatory are required before a post is collapsed. It is not the moderators that collapse comments. It is your votes that collapse the comments.

JS in SD:

What a great post!!! Nothing is owed to any of us. Agreed.

It takes creativity, believing in yourself, hard work, long hours of dedication at one's place of business, and motivation to reach a goal, becoming a useful part of society.. No handouts.

Mantra for our children, : "You can be anything you want"; not "You can do anything you want"---

By making it on your own, it builds character, strength to get thru life, integrity, responsibility, and good self esteem; in the end reaping the rewards of one's labor.

Hobbyshop

When will Occupy Wall Street start their protests against professional sports?

Here is a recent average salary for the major sports

• Basketball (NBA) -- $5,000,000
• Baseball (MLB) -- $2,800,000
• Football (NFL) -- $1,750,000
• Hockey (NHL) -- $1,500,000
• Men's Golf -- $973,495
• Women's Tennis -- $345,000
• Men's Tennis -- $260,000
• Women's Golf -- $162,043

These people are all in that 1 percent they are railing against.....

Mind you these are the players, not management making these average salaries....

How can you compare the overinflated salaries of people who make money off of other people's money with the salaries of people who work damn hard for it, and provide a benefit to all Americans: they entertain us! We don't mind paying for entertainment to help us get away from the daily political BS for a few hours. But you know what? We know what we're paying for, and we know what we're getting when we pay for it.

So, Mr. Banker... what magic did you create today that affected more than just your board of directors lives today? Prove your value to me, Mr. 1%.

I would like to say in the defense of home town police, They did a great job with the Occupy Chest. The Chief was helpful on keeping us from being arrested and he "knew" what the 1st amendment, really says. And we had a common respect for each point.

The one thing we have to take into consideration, Is Communication!

In a larger city I do not know how this would work, but for small town USA, we still believe in the Constitution, and with respect for both side, it worked well.

The new Chief of Police, I can see that he is a "good man". And that is the best I can say to anyone!

well said wanna2know

Have to add a word in here about the police in WI. From all accounts, they respected the protestors that numbered in the thousands, even looking out for the anti-protestors that tried to cause problems with their shoving and pushing. (They were bussed in compliments of Koch Bros.) It was heartening to see the police mingling with those "overpaid, lazy public and private workers," (per the media). Kudos to the protestors and the police.

These protestors should NOT mistake the police's determination to keep the peace, as being "respect" for the OWS squatters. They did so out of respect for the other people who want these demonstrators off the streets and out of the way so they could commence living their lives without being hassled or detoured or having to smell the garbage.

Soros and adbusters are enjoying the whole scene. If you don't think they are backing it, google OWS backers. They sit happily in their comfortable places while the protesters get maced and arrested. How sad. Obama and their buddies in Washington are happy as clams and cheer them on. Obama is in bed with all the people trying to bring down our economy and enjoying every minute of it.

wanna2know

Your post sounds like the definition of apathy. Perhaps if we all hug and sing Kumbaya we can maintain the status quo as the subtext of your post implies.

Or busting out windows of businesses (Oakland), or trying to stop $ from flowing into the American market by scaring investors, or forcibly closing an American sea port (Oakland--and the government was wrong not to help police when it came to an American sea port). So OWS says one thing with their mouth and does the exact opposite with their actions. But actions speak more loudly than words.

You don't create jobs by shutting down ports either. I think it is safe to say that creating jobs is not on their priority list. Getting things for free from others they think are undeserving is their message.

theboys is right, shutting down the ports can interfere those jobs that have been exported to China.

OWS needs to be as considerate as the international corporations that relocated the jobs there in the first place.

If Americans can't get a job importing and trucking the things we used to make in the US, what else are we supposed to do?

It is our duty as Americans to keep the ports open so international corporations can continue to help Asia become the worlds leader in both low and now high tech manufacturing.

Dan, you write like Occupy still exists. Que?

Si

The Occupy movement does still exist? Want proof? Watch the news all day on December 12th...

theboys

You don't create jobs by shutting down ports either. I think it is safe to say that creating jobs is not on their priority list. Getting things for free from others they think are undeserving is their message.

Republicans believe shutting down government - or repeatedly threatening to do so - is a way to create jobs. Don't they? Republicans came in talking about creating jobs, but they haven't presented a single proposal. What they've come back with is "break the unions". How does that create jobs? By allowing a larger - employed - workforce to be grossly underpaid? That's sounds like China. Here's the scenario under a 2012 Republican administration: Unions are busted. There may be a fight, a buyer's remorse from the American people, but by then it's too late - unless the Supreme Court rules in favor of the average worker. Unfortunately it's the same supreme court which ruled that corporations are people. So now U.S. wages drop to the same level as the Chinese worker when the unions get busted and workers rights - ALL workers rights - are eliminated. How can that happen? Because former union workers will now be competing for the same jobs as non-union workers. That will drive all American wages down dramatically. We would now be competitive with China, BUT we would not reap the benefits of having a new, equal pay as the average Chinese worker, who currently makes pennies on the dollar compared to US workers - and this would go on for years, maybe decades. That's a lot of suffering for us, a lot of new wealth for the Chinese. If OWS fails, then Republicans win it all and the new world order begins. It won't be good for the 99%. You'll wish to God you would have supported it when you had the chance. Oops.

I think most of you just copy/paste your speeches over and over again *Truejoy and The Boys*. Please learn to speak for yourselves and not the rhetoric.

@Truejoy, you keep mentions things that happened about a month ago like it's still happening. Even the news media said that most violent acts were caused by off shoots of the main Occupy groups and were stopped &/or helped to be cleaned up by members of the Occupy movement.

@The Boys, the only time I've read anything about shutting down the port was when it was announced days before and they did it and left. There were a few people at the end of the day that didn't leave when the actual Occupy protesters left and they caused some trouble. But nothing since then.

Please keep with the current news and not old happenings. Thank you!

Deborah: The anti-OWS rants on these posts are from the paid R/Tps and/or Fox viewers with little concept of what they're saying.

What's most important is that there are Americans who understand the growing tentacles of the wealthy corporatists, those who want an obedient labor force. The use of divide and conquer is very evident in their strategy, i.e., choosing, of all groups, teachers and nurses as their scapegoats. Then there's the wealthy corporatists who are out to destroy unions, the last bastion of the middle class. Take a look at the R/Tps in Congress that have signed and OBEY the Norquist oath to Not Raise Taxes on the Wealthy, the R/Tps that are holding workers as hostage for their corporate/lobbying funders. The OWS movement is awakening Americans to the danger that is present and will eventually usurp this country. Vote DEMOCRATIC in all elections. Take your electeds to task.

Earthgirl, just one caveat on the vote Democratic, although I have been forced to do so due to the complete implosion of the Republican party, it is not enough.

We must PRIMARY Democratic politicians who cave to the international corporations and push for a complete reworking of the way elections are financed, and run.

Without major protest from the American people, this will not happen.

When the derivatives pyramid scheme implodes, there will be MANY more Americans willing to stop business as usual. Millions of Americans (and Billions of people world wide) will be completely screwed when this happens.

If I could advise people what to do before hand I would, but the derivatives problem is so great, and things are already so screwed up I don't don't know what else to say except that we have a problem that can't be solved by the usual means.

Earthgirl, The pro-OWS rants on these posts are from the paid Dems and/or Soros supporters with little concept of what they're saying.

See, I can post something without evidence too.

We need to vote for the best person for the job no matter what party they are part of. Our separatism is killing our country. I am not saying we should be all one party or the other. I am saying not everyone is the best person for the job. We need to think more for ourselves and not always vote just because they belong to a party.

@bohnmann I wish someone would pay me to tell the truth. If you know of anyone...send them my way.

But weren't they shutting down ports that exported our goods to other countries?
Yes, indeed they were.

That means that they were shutting down ports used to sell AMERICAN made products and harvests. AMERICAN made. That means manufactured in AMERICA, which means jobs for people in AMERICA. By shutting down our export ports the only people you hurt are American manufacturers and farmers.

Keep shutting down our ports and other countries will just go somewhere else for their goods. They don't need to put up with our temper tantrums. Then see what happens to what's left of our manufacturing and farming industries. Idiots.

If you want to protest, have at it. But think it through at least. Geez.

earthgirl,

Exactly so. I mean, why would these naysayers bother to complain about a movement they claim has died, unless of course they are 1) worried that it hasn't died at all, or 2) they are simply paid shills.

I wonder what it was Willy the Shake meant when he penned, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much."

Jeff D-3771612

RICK--try using your brain rather than being a blind faith zombie. Your post reads like a littany of psychotic parnoia portrayed in a low-buget monie.

Use my brain, huh? How about you use yours to tell me, point by point, how my scenario is implausible. Because I believe those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

You'll tell me to use my brain, so how about I challenge you to do the same and reply how unions have not led to fair pay, reasonable work conditions, eight-hour workdays, overtime, vacation time and child labor laws over the last century. Tell me how those things won't go away if a Republican administration has its way; they've already tried in Ohio, Wisconsin, New Jersey and elsewhere under Republican governors.

So you tell me, Republican braintrust cog #3771612, how it just can't happen.

bohnmann

See, I can post something without evidence too.

"Can" post something without evidence? I see examples of no evidence quite regularly and routinely from Republicans in all levels of government and from talking heads at Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Fortunately, the Republican debates are stocking the Democratic video vaults full of evidence to the defense of our party while providing a damning prosecution against yours.

I will bet you this: in 2016, the Republicans, should they not regain the White House again in 2012, will hold about TWO debates relative to the dozens they've done this time around. The Republican party's attorneys should be disbarred for malpractice the way they have handled making their case to the American people.

Meanwhile, I have hours of juicy debate talking points to browse, which show what imbeciles your candidates are. Not just how out of touch they are, but how out of touch with reality the collective message of the far right has become.

Does your side not realize that the bright red light on the camera means that it is turned on, and the debate is being recorded? Oops.

I find it interesting that so many people object to the occupy movement bot if you take a moment isn't the republican movement in the house of government occupying also if all you anti-occupy people would demand more from your? congressman or senator maybe we could get some JOBS. Just a thought.

What would our Founding Fathers say?

America's founders are revered throughout history as valiant and wise revolutionaries who fought together to create this great country. But have you ever wondered what Paine, Washington, Jefferson and the rest would have to say about the Occupy Movement?

"And I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds...our people.. must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread..."

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."

- Thomas Jefferson

Is it so presumptuous to wonder if our founding fathers, if alive today, would protest these injustices alongside us? Is it so absurd to imagine Thomas Jefferson pitching a tent with the rest in a public park? After all, protest was tantamount to the founding of our nation. The repair of a broken government is the responsibility of its people. Indeed, those who recognize the injustice in our government ought to protest, lest they be charged with less-than-patriotic apathy.

Beefy...sounds to me that Jefferson would have been more supportive of the Tea Party than the OWS folks. George Bush's deficit increase was $5 Trillion in 8 yrs; Obama's, $5 trillion in 3 yrs. The Repubs only had control of Congress for 4 of the past 10 yrs; Dems had control for 6 yrs incl complete control for the past 5 yrs....who owns the deficit and the current poor economy? Sorry, but it's Obama and the Dems...

"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds...our people.. must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread..."

JW - I wasn't talking about debt. Although since you mention it...one of the goals of OWS was to seize the national dialogue away from the debt frenzy. The debt talk largely focused on cuts to social programs for the disadvantaged, the elderly and the poor (not necessarily lazy by the way), exactly the group that could least afford it. With the rise of the OWS movement, the national conversation (check out Pew research for the startling raw data) is now dominated by things like "income inequality", "99% vs. 1%" and "Occupation Wall Street". So in that sense, the OWS is already winning (try not to think of Charlie Sheen though).

As for your debt input, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has updated and refined a widely cited chart, laying out the origins of the country’s current fiscal trajectory. And as before, the lion’s share of the problem comes from ongoing George W. Bush-era policies — particularly deficit-financed tax cuts, which eliminated Clinton-era surpluses and left the Treasury poised for a huge hit when the financial crisis and economic downturn further eroded federal revenues.

By the end of the decade, CBPP projects that, on the current trajectory, the Bush tax cuts, exacerbated by the economic downturn, combined with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will account for the significant majority of public debt as a share of GDP.

Without those factors, and without the need for stimulus measures under President Obama, CBPP projects that the debt-to-GDP ratio would have dropped under both Presidents Bush and Obama. Yes, Bush included. But don't take my word for it, check out this wonderful color chart!

tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/chart-bush-policies-dominant-cause-of-debt

Oh, and as for the Tea Party, it started as a movement against Wall Street bailouts...so it really isn't that different.

Beefy: some good points, the Tea Party and OWS do have some intersecting interests. The bit about the Founding Fathers is a bit much, they would not support big govt and massive debt ... as evidenced by the quotes you posted here.

As for the big banks, many people leave the Federal Reserve out of the discussion. The Fed creates money from nothing (literally!) and we pay it interest! It is after all, contrary to popular opinion, a for profit entity. We have in out past printed our own money ... and didn't have to pay anyone. Probably a coincidence ... but of the 4 presidents who either ended a central bank (Jackson and the Second Bank of the United States), or who adamantly opposed one ... Lincoln, Garfield, and Kennedy ... were either assassinated or, in Jackson's case ... survived an attempt when the pistols misfired. Again, probably just a coincidence, but there is nothing stopping us from printing our own money and paying noone.

And yet you waste your time and comment? Fear is a true motivator, isn't it? I love the old what would Jesus do thing, but I paraphrase it today to what would The Founding Fathers say, what would they put into the Constitution?

Did he strike a nerve Ray? The way I read it, the key word in the first sentence is barely.

Good one, Bitterhawk!!! You got 'em on a technicality!!! You must be so proud!

And you are all still talking about it!!! *smiles* That is the point the protesters want...thank you for helping their movement. No sarcasm intended. Thank you. As long as discussions are made in a sane not in "Wonderland" way about the Occupy protesters and the reasons for their protest there is hope we will solve the problems that caused the movement in the first place. The more we talk about them the more the word is spread. Keep up the good work.

Actually Bitterhawk, the first word in the sentence was "Seriously". If you're going to be a troll, at least learn how to be a good one.

LOL. I guess I must have struck a couple of nerves. The distinction that I was trying to make was that there is a big difference between "barely worth the energy to post" and "not worth the energy to post". Actually Chris, you are correct . The first word of the sentence is indeed "seriously", but I still think the key word is "barely". To the barely literate (Smithy?), I guess that would just be a technicality.

@Bitterhawk, but you keep posting so it must be a worthy cause. *smiles* Just following your logic.

Deborah, your logic would be sound if I were the one who posted the original comment.

Worried about the OWS? Why? the Democrats love the OWS. Repubs worried?Bout like the Dem's are worried about Ms. Palin. She's not even running , and the DNC is still putting out hate on her.

The majority of voters in the United States are stupid. I'll vote democrat, "cause I believe in big government, taxing the rich, and free medical care. Medical care isn't going to be free. the insurance companies can charge you $500.00 a month, and if you don't pay it, the government will fine you. Tax the rich? The top 4% of income tax payers paid 86% of the income tax collected. 50% of the people earning $50,000.00 a year paid no taxes. Who is paying their fair share? Can the rich pay more - sure, but so should everyone else. And spending increases MUST stop. And government is already too big. The democrats said you would have to pass the law to read what's in it. Most have not read it, or all of any other law passed. There are not enough trucks in DC to hold all the laws that government has written.

America's only hope is to send all incumbents home. Elect reps. that will enact term limits, and spending limits on elections and budgets.

Spending limits on elections aren't enough. Elections should be funded ENTIRELY by the government, all "donations" to people in office should be banned.

Our representatives in government should be very well paid in exchange for banning all "gifts".

This works well in Singapore. There is very little corruption there, and when it does happen, the punishment is severe.

Who cares about what is left of the political parties in America? They do the bidding of those corporations that give them the most money, and will hire the parties cronies when they are out of government.

I made a petition that I feel the President, Congressmen/women, & Senators should get paid minimum wage while in office. There should be a separate expense account for business travel and such. They can have a bonus at the end of each year that we have a balanced budget.

I'll try to put the link up, but sometimes the links disappear here.

#!/petition/have-president-and-all-senators-and-congressmenwomen-be-paid-minimum-wage-until-we-have-balanced/Bk4yl8ql

It will become a public petition after 150 people have electronically signed it. If you feel the same, please sign it. It's on the White House petition site. Email me if they take the website link away and I'll send it to you.

Deborah S.

Pay them less money and they will need to steal more of it.

Your post accurately paints the true nature of the problem. If they relaxed the park rules like they have relaxed the banking rules in the last dozen years, the protesters could plow up the park grass and plant corn.

If bank regulations were enforced like park rules, nobody would go to the bank either.

What would our Founding Fathers say?

America's founders are revered throughout history as valiant and wise revolutionaries who fought together to create this great country. But have you ever wondered what Paine, Washington, Jefferson and the rest would have to say about the Occupy Movement?

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the land that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."

- Samuel Adams

Is it so presumptuous to wonder if our founding fathers, if alive today, would protest these injustices alongside us? Is it so absurd to imagine Thomas Jefferson pitching a tent with the rest in a public park? After all, protest was tantamount to the founding of our nation. The repair of a broken government is the responsibility of its people. Indeed, those who recognize the injustice in our government ought to protest, lest they be charged with less-than-patriotic apathy.

It's an act of war. It's supposed to scare the US government. And 20-30,000 people (generous estimate of how many sum total protesters appeared across the US, though the same folks went from place to place to try to make it look like they had more people--a New Orleans police officer explained how OWS came in, set up all the tents, got photos, then left --left the tents, too) chanting "we are the half of one percent, we are the 1/2 of 1%," --in a country of 312 million people, would still be grossly over-exaggerating their numbers!

Send me a link to that story. I don't believe you by the way. The movement is growing every day and the older people are starting to go out and support them too.

slodon is right, shutting down the ports can interfere those jobs that have been exported to China.

OWS needs to be as considerate as the international corporations that relocated the jobs there in the first place.

If Americans can't get a job importing and trucking the things we used to make in the US, what else are we supposed to do?

It is our duty as Americans to keep the ports open so international corporations can continue to help Asia become the worlds leader in both low and now high tech manufacturing.

Posted by Dan 425916: (read it through before ignoring, it's a snark, and a good one!)

slodon is right, shutting down the ports can interfere those jobs that have been exported to China.

OWS needs to be as considerate as the international corporations that relocated the jobs there in the first place.

If Americans can't get a job importing and trucking the things we used to make in the US, what else are we supposed to do?

It is our duty as Americans to keep the ports open so international corporations can continue to help Asia become the worlds leader in both low and now high tech manufacturing.

earthgirl and Dan

And just how are we to EXPORT or goods to the World with the ports shutdown???

How many Longshoremen will be out of work???

How many Farmers and Farmhands will be affected???

How many Manufacturing jobs will be idle??

Think before you act is always a good idea.

Ok slodon,

Should the American public just ask our corporate masters nicely to stop creating fake financial "products", to stop taking taxpayer money to subsidize their bonuses, to stop defrauding millions of Americans out of their retirements funds?

Has the status quo been working?

What would get the attention of the international corporations and their government cronies?

Should we get permits and serve tea?

To be fair shutting the ports for a day will be a minor inconvenience. The goods will still be exported and imported, though lets be frank, imports (usually manufactured goods) tend to arrive from Asia far more than exports (usually raw materials).

Since I live in NYC I won't be able to block the ports, but I support those who are willing to put their asses on the line and try something.

What would our Founding Fathers say?

America's founders are revered throughout history as valiant and wise revolutionaries who fought together to create this great country. But have you ever wondered what Paine, Washington, Jefferson and the rest would have to say about the Occupy Movement?

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."

"If we wish to be free, if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending, if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained -- we must fight!"

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them."

- Patrick Henry

Is it so presumptuous to wonder if our founding fathers, if alive today, would protest these injustices alongside us? Is it so absurd to imagine Thomas Jefferson pitching a tent with the rest in a public park? After all, protest was tantamount to the founding of our nation. The repair of a broken government is the responsibility of its people. Indeed, those who recognize the injustice in our government ought to protest, lest they be charged with less-than-patriotic apathy.

They, especially Madison and Jefferson would go ballistic on the Federal Reserve. They opposed the First Bank of the United States (1791 - 1811) which was promoted by Alexander Hamilton (I'm proud to say that my ancestor shot him to death in a duel ... although we was a bit of a scoundrel himself) and Gouvernor Morris.

And Jefferson said (I'm paraphrasing) that "it's OK to shed some blood every couple hundred years in the defense of liberty". Problem is IMHO, the ones with the guns (NRA, etc) do not look with favor on OWS and the like. Tea Partiers and OWS should find common cause in opposition to banking excesses, bailouts, etc.

People post rather loosely here, denouncing "corporate" this and that. Yeah, banks are corporations, but not all corporations are banks.

Corporations are not in business to give you a job. If you wish to demonize them, regulate the hell out of them, strike at the drop of a hat ... maybe it's just easier to hire the work force overseas. Has anyone given that any consideration? They don't HAVE to do business here. Many of our corporations make more money overseas than here. Some make money overseas and lose money here.

If you'd LIKE them to continue doing business here ... better let them know .... SOON!

Good luck to all of you. I know it's tough now. I'm retired and fat, dumb and happy. (I know someone will be all over that one :)

We should all remember that we are AMERICANS. Progressivism is not an American concept. It's Marxist origins are apparent to the student of history (M.A. 1969). Political Correctness is also foreign in its origin. From Critical Theory developed at the Institute for Social Research at Frankfurt University. By Bela Lukacs and Antonio Gramsci (Marxists). They were run out of Germany in the 1930s and, lucky us, they came here ... along with Erich Fromm (another Institute for Social Research guy)

Lenin said it best: "Liberals / progressives are useful idiots".

More food for thought ... read the Communist Manifesto: below are 3 of it's 10 main tenets:

1)a progressive income tax

2) a central bank

3) no right to an inheritance

Again to quote Lenin: "Once you have a central bank, most of the work of communizing a country is already done."

Story enough for you to comment!

What would our Founding Fathers say?

America's founders are revered throughout history as valiant and wise revolutionaries who fought together to create this great country. But have you ever wondered what Paine, Washington, Jefferson and the rest would have to say about the Occupy Movement?

"Let us therefore animate and encourage each other, and show the world that a free man, contending for his liberty on his own ground, is superior to any slavish mercenary on earth."

"My anxious recollections, my sympathetic feeling, and my best wishes are irresistibly excited whensoever, in any country, I see an oppressed nation unfurl the banners of freedom."

"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their Constitutions of Government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, 'till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole People is sacredly obligatory upon all."

"The best means of forming a manly, virtuous, and happy people will be found in the right education of youth. Without this foundation, every other means, in my opinion, must fail."

- George Washington

Is it so presumptuous to wonder if our founding fathers, if alive today, would protest these injustices alongside us? Is it so absurd to imagine Thomas Jefferson pitching a tent with the rest in a public park? After all, protest was tantamount to the founding of our nation. The repair of a broken government is the responsibility of its people. Indeed, those who recognize the injustice in our government ought to protest, lest they be charged with less-than-patriotic apathy.

What would our Founding Fathers say?

America's founders are revered throughout history as valiant and wise revolutionaries who fought together to create this great country. But have you ever wondered what Paine, Washington, Jefferson and the rest would have to say about the Occupy Movement?

"The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy."

"Without Freedom of Thought there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as Public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech."

"It is a common observation here that our cause is the cause of all mankind, and that we are fighting for their liberty in defending our own."

- Benjamin Franklin

Is it so presumptuous to wonder if our founding fathers, if alive today, would protest these injustices alongside us? Is it so absurd to imagine Thomas Jefferson pitching a tent with the rest in a public park? After all, protest was tantamount to the founding of our nation. The repair of a broken government is the responsibility of its people. Indeed, those who recognize the injustice in our government ought to protest, lest they be charged with less-than-patriotic apathy.

"The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy."

And yet many favor a progressive income tax, which does NOT affect us equally. And 47% pay no tax.

Equal protection is an ideal, but let's face it, whether your mayor, city councilman, alderman, or representative is Democratic or Republican, if you're in tight with them, your protection is NOT EQUAL.

Your "rights" consist of equal opportunity, not equal OUTCOME. And hey, if your parents are wealthier, they're probably also smarter (something I read in the newspaper, some research study ... if you want to dispute that, fine, Google it) too, so the child of said offspring may be smarter, may have access to a better education, and MAY ... also learn more about finance that your average joe.

Case in point, when I was 18 and visiting California ,,, a friend I met out there ... also 18 showed me something his grandfather had given him ... an explanation of the Dow Theory. My parents probably couldn't have spelled Dow Theory. So, I had to learn it all myself. Just the way it is.

GERYK63 is right! they need to move to Asia and get a JOB!

Many supporting the movement have jobs, those jobs include mayor, cops, office staff, military, construction workers, minimum pay wage earners and many more. Many get off of work and then go occupy.

Those that say get a job or take a shower, are just showing true ignorance.

I these idiots? You that idiot.

Civil disobedience is one of the last weapons voiceless people have! And with the absurd power that corporate lobbyists have and readily exert in DC, the 99% is basically voiceless! If you simply dismiss the Occupy movement as spoiled children or unwashed hippies or homeless rapists or any other uninformed generalization, then you are fooling yourself - and most likely have not even been to an occupation site. I have been. And while yes you have some freaks there, they are the exception - not the rule. In every large grouping you will have a broad array of viewpoints, but an honest analysis will reveal the core truths. The OWS movement is NOT anti-capitalism. It is NOT anti-rich. It is NOT anti-work. It is simply about a level playing field. It is about getting money and influence out of politics so that the people are once again part of this "democracy". Resist the impulse to patently reject these truths! Just stop and think that maybe, just maybe, this is NOT a left wing movement...maybe, just maybe this is a populist movement...an American citizen movement...a movement to take our government back!

The facts do not lie. The gap between the poor and rich is greater than any time since the gilded age. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The Middle Class is disappearing. Jobs are being sent overseas where poverty stricken people will work for pennies a day. Technological advances like digitization have completely re-shaped the entire economic model in this country. And the new model is unsustainable. You cannot have a country of multi-billionaires and everyone else living on food stamps. The gov't - Dems and GOP both - are not working for us. They work for their corporate masters - big pharma, big banks, big insurance, big defense, big telecom. These companies are spending tens of millions every year on lobbyists! Think about it. If it wasn't working for them, why would they continue to do it?!? Meanwhile, the 99% without lobbyists get spied on, and nickeled and dimed to death; we get ever increasing costs and less for it; we have to work harder and harder, for more and more hours, for less and less. My father's generation could afford a house, two cars, new appliances, a nice vacation, college for his kids - all on a middle class wage. And most of them only had high school educations. Now, recent grads with PHd's can't afford any of that! The system is not working correctly. It needs to be fixed so that the American people can once again enjoy the American Dream based on meritocracy - not what socio-economic group you are born into!

The OWS movement is NOT anti-capitalism. It is NOT anti-rich. It is NOT anti-work. It is simply about a level playing field. It is about getting money and influence out of politics so that the people are once again part of this "democracy". I have been to my city's occupation site. Have you?

Who ever said they were Communist? I support them and I am a conservative that is tired of our Government being for sale. I suppose you would rather be a Fascist than a Communist but for me, I would rather get America back and rebuild the middle class.

I don't know if the Mayor of LA can be impeached, but if you don't like the mayor you can vote him out.

Last I checked people in a democracy can advocate for any kind of economic system they want.

I'm not sure who is advocating for a dead ideology.

Keith.... Occupy's "demands" are all part of the Communist Party USA platform of "reform", almost verbatim.

John, since I haven't read the Communist demands I don't know if they are a bad thing. I remember in the late 60's and early 70's that the "Mother Jones" crowd wanted the same things we did. "Stop the war in Vietnam" So, just because the Communist might like some of the same things that others do, doesn't make the goals bad in itself.

Why you are worried about the Communist Party is a little strange isfyou ask me? They haven't been a threat to America in over 50 years. They weren't even a threat when that crazy McCarthy was chasing Communist and subverting our Constitution by illegal trials and public displays of of Nationalism. He was a bad man. If America had not been supporting a Dictator in Cuba that country would have never have had to suffer the years of Communism that it has and there would have never been a Castro. Keep in mind that America makes most of their own problems by being on the wrong side of history most of the time.

Freedom of Speech isn't Communism...it's the American way. We have been doing it for centuries...including how we started this country in the first place. We told England to get out. If you don't like Freedom of Speech...maybe you are in the wrong country?

Communism? Where'd you get that from, your newest R/Tp script? They're protesting for you too!

Keith: Communism is still alive and well in this world....and this country. The communists organizations are in full support of the OWS movement. Why? Because it is their beliefs too. Communism takes away capitalism, rights of the individual, and puts government in charge of making sure everyone gets everything equal. No motivation to improve, strive, dream about the future. Think USSR. We all know what happened there.

As bad as some think our country is, which I am not in agreement with, it is still the greatest country in the world. We have issues to work out, but we WILL work them out without destroying the constitutional freedoms we have.

@life.is.hard You really don't know what the protests are about. They don't want to get rid of capitalism. They want the restrictions back that make capitalism into a dictatorship with corporations being the dictators. They want the restrictions we used to have in place to make sure that corporations don't steal us blind and that everyone is paid a decent wage for a decent days work. Most of the 1% mentioned didn't work for their money...they inherited it. Those of you saying they worked for it are very wrong. Not all are bad and the protesters know that. Many of the responsible corporations are actually out there donating to the Occupy protesters. How do you think they can afford to keep buying blankets after their blankets were taken away by the police?

The only people that mention communism at all are those trying to discredit the Occupy movement.

Debby,

Read this three times and it still does not make sense:

"They don't want to get rid of capitalism. They want the restrictions back that make capitalism into a dictatorship with corporations being the dictators."

You want everyone to be paid a decent wage for a decent days work. Union electricians are paid about $36 an hour. Non-union electricians on average make about $32 an hour. High school kids working at McDonalds make about $8 an hour. A typical office worker can make $50K to $80K a year.

Who exactly is NOT getting paid a decent wage for a decent days work? Illegal farm workers? Illegal drug pushers?

@JC in G You aren't an economics major are you? You also don't live in the same world I live in. Most office workers I know make less than 30k per year. Unless they have been there for 10+ years. Most people that work at McDonald's start out at minimum wage. I don't know where you get your information, but the average paid worker gets a lot less than what you say.

I know Electricians personally that don't get paid that amount not even half that amount even union ones.

Then you are simply a liar. Go to Payscale dot com. I am not making these numbers up. 30k a year is about $14 per hour. Stick around at the company and show you are worth more and you make more.

It would be interesting if any Union Electrician fessed up to making less $18 per hour. What local do you work for? I'll bet they would never tell any electrician they should work for $18 an hour. They could not get enough dues out of that pay scale! LOL

And Deb, why does OWS want corporations to be dictators?

Deb, found lots of articles on the web about self made and inheritated wealth. None of them indicate that most wealthy people inherited their money. Most articles say about the same thing:

"In one survey, the Chicago-based Spectrem Group found that only 2% to 4% of the fortune of today’s millionaires was inherited. Russ Alan Prince found that only about 10% of today’s rich ($10 million or more) inherited their money."

What world do you live in?

Please post those sights and stop trying to say just because you found something that it's true everywhere. If you didn't know, each state has a different pay scale based on the economy of that state and even some cities within states make less per hour than a city just 50 miles or less away. Trying to say everyone makes the largest amount of money is a lie.

I live in the real world with real people that make real money. Would you like a list of people in my state that don't make half of what you say? Electricians too. I never said I was an electrician, I said I know some personally as in I went to school with them, grew up next to them, etc. What electricians do you personally know that make that kind of money?

If you will look at the census data you will see that average income has decreased. The lowest for a state - Mississippi was lower than 40K per year.

Most of the 1% mentioned didn't work for their money...they inherited it. Those of you saying they worked for it are very wrong.

Prove it.

Another article which seems to use U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics states: "The average income of an electrician as of May 2009 was $24.45 per hour, or $50,850 per year, finds the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Those in the middle 50 percent of the earnings scale were earning $17.30 to $30.35 per hour. The bottom 10 percent had an hourly pay rate below $13.80, and the top 10 percent over $38.50.

Read more: What Is the Average Income of an Electrician? | eHow.com #ixzz1f10oKnqg

Another website says that: "Average Electrician Salary Range
The electrician salary range is completely dependent on the years of work experience. The average income of an electrician is between USD 10,000 to USD 70,000."

The breakdown they give is by experience:

Less than 1 year - Annual Electrician salary is approximately $10,000

1 to 4 years - Annual salary is approx. $20,000-$40,000

5 to 9 years experience - Annual salary is approx. $30,000-$50,000

10 to 19 years experience - Annual salary is approximately $40,000-$60,000

20 years or more experience - Annual salary is approximately $50,000-$70,000

I believe I've made my point. Most electricians don't make the money you say. Only the top 10 percent or those that have been working in the business for more than 10 years.

The last website was Buzzle.com and the last update was 9/21/2011.

PH,

Don't bother asking a reasonable question. The deb just ignores them. Her point is that $50K a year is not reasonable pay for reasonable work. She believes that if someone has millions of dollars, the only way they got it was by inheriting it. (Just ask Buffet or Gates or, RIP, Jobs.)

This is pretty typical of the OWS crowd. Ask them what they want and they come up with ways of saying "As long as there are people that have a lot more than me, I want what they have." The funny thing is that they can have that, all they have to do is work for it.

Deb, $10,000 a year starting out as an electrician would be $4.80 an hour. Do you really believe that anyone besides grape pickers work for 4.80 an hour?

JC in G,

Sigh. I believe you are right. The proof I requested is not findable anyway, because it's simply not true.

Happy holidays!

Of the top 10 riches people in the USA according to therichest.org who list their information from Forbes:

5 of the 10 inherited there money. Now do people that inherit their money just sit on it? It's hard to say if they make their money grow or if they hire others to make that happen for them.

I will admit I over stated. About half the 1% inherited their wealth. But that's just the top 10 wealthiest. Below that could be more who inherited their wealth.

@JC in G. No one said the electricians that have less than 1 years experience were able to find full-time work. You just assume they work full-time.

No one starts out making $50,000 unless they have a specialized job. And those that do have a specialized job don't often find a lot of work until they have more experience.

@PH funny how the not able to find was easily found with one google search. Of the top 10 riches people 50% inherited there money.

Mississippi:

2007 average yearly income $37,279.

2010 average yearly income $37,985.

Most of the years before that, the income increased. Maybe the housing market colapse played a little part in that, or possibly the cost of foreign energy.

10 ten richest people? I could have sworn that you said "Most of the 1% mentioned didn't work for their money...they inherited it."

The top 10 richest people in the US are not representative of the whole, so I'm not sure you could could apply trends in the top 10 to the whole. Surely, a successful small business owner may be in the top 1% but they would not even come close to the top 10 richest. A whole lot of the 1% are major innovators (Gates and the like), Hollywood players, athletes and business owners. Also, it depends on which definition of 1% you are talking about - I've heard OWS people say anyone making over $50,000 is a 1%-er (no joking). I think you can agree with me that is ridiculous.

I would be interested in knowing the actual facts though. Surely, a portion is inherited wealth, but I still think your 50% is still a high number. Further, someone can inherit wealth and still work hard to grow it and generate more. Family businesses, for example, should not be vilified if they operate within the confines of the law, which the vast majority of businesses do.

@PH funny how the not able to find was easily found with one google search. Of the top 10 riches people 50% inherited there money.

50% is not most. 10 people is not representative of the whole. Find me a fact on the percentage of ALL 1%-ers that inherited their wealth.

"No one said the electricians that have less than 1 years experience were able to find full-time work. You just assume they work full-time."

So, is part time work "A decent days work"?

Do they make $10,000 for working 10 hours? 100? 1000? If you are going to use those statistics, please use all the relevent data.

To answer another of your questions directly. Paul makes over $100K a year as an electrician in a union state. Mark makes over $95K a year in a non-union state. Both have about 15 years experience. Neither is in the top 1% of wage earners.

@JC in G - I own my own home. I bought it outright, no mortgage. I've never been on unemployment. I don't use credit cards, just the check cashing card from my credit union. I don't rent to own. I don't buy things because they are new. I use a computer that is several years old. I defeat all your claims of what these supposed Occupy supporters are supposed to be.

Your lies are killing you. Electricians don't start out making that kind of money like you said. I showed you two sources.

I even went to Payscale.com and it shows that McDonald's workers average per hour pay is less than $8 per hour. Only managers, assistant managers and the like make above $8 per hour. The average pay for even managers is less than $10 per hour. Your lies are following you everywhere.

Glassdoor.com shows about the same for McDonald's workers.

SimplyHired.com shows the average McDonald employ makes $24,000 per year.

Where are all these high paid McDonald's workers you speak of?

SimplyHired.com shows the average Electrician makes $43,000 per year.

Please show me your proof otherwise. What sites and what they actually say. I am typing what they say, not what my opinion is.

Most of Americans are under-employed. Assuming anyone is working full-time is a wrong assumption.

You both like to try and belittle the data before you, but still show no proof otherwise.

I am glad your friends are making that kind of money, but as you say they have both worked for 15 years at their trade. But we were talking the average salary not the pay scale in your part of the USA. People in many different states make twice or triple what people in other states make for the same job with the same experience. That doesn't make them the average American.

@PH please do as you asked me. Prove what percent of the 1% riches people in the USA didn't inherit some or all their income.

Well, this was a lot easier than I thought. From a 2008 WSJ article titled "The Decline of Inherited Money." It's a little old, but given the fact that inheritance is generational, I don't think three years would greatly impact these numbers:

My Krugman post brought a lot of emails asking about my assertion that “the vast majority of today’s rich didn’t inherit their money, but made it themselves.”

For the sake of brevity, I didn’t cite the research behind the statement. But since many of you have asked, and we aim to please here at the Wealth Report, here are my three main data points:

1. According to a study of Federal Reserve data conducted by NYU professor Edward Wolff, for the nation’s richest 1%, inherited wealth accounted for only 9% of their net worth in 2001, down from 23% in 1989. (The 2001 number was the latest available.)

2. According to a study by Prince & Associates, less than 10% of today’s multi-millionaires cited “inheritance” as their source of wealth.

3. A study by Spectrem Group found that among today’s millionaires, inherited wealth accounted for just 2% of their total sources of wealth.

Each of these stats measures slightly different things, yet they all come to the same basic conclusion: Inheritance is not the main driver of today’s wealth. The reason we’ve had a doubling in the number of millionaires and billionaires over the past decade (even adjusted for inflation) is that more of the non-wealthy have become wealthy.

So it’s not just that the same old rich folks are getting richer. The more-important shift is that the rich are getting more numerous.

Here is the link:

Thank you for trying OWS.

That $24,000 per year is $11.53 per hour well above the $8 that you say

and $43,000 is $20.67 per hour

I make less than a McDonalds employee and I work in Manufacturing

sounds like the High-School drop outs found a loophole by flipping burgers.

Deb,

"Most of Americans are under-employed. Assuming anyone is working full-time is a wrong assumption."

Well, I am working full time and all the people at my company are working full time, so your statement is wrong. Do you understand the meaning of the word "Wrong"? "Assuming anyone" (Anyone is one person) "is working full time is a wrong assumption."

If your point was that someone that worked 15 years is the exception to the rule, well, yes, we all understand that experience and worth to a company are rewarded by higher pay. Payscale dot com reports that the average starting salary at McDonalds is $7.56 per hour for their lowest paid jobs. You got me, I said that it was $8.00 per hour. I was off by 44 cents because I also included the people that actually flip the burgers and take orders. If you include them, it is about $8.00 per hour.

PH has debunked your assertation that most of the top 1% inherited their wealth. PH also provided reliable sources.

The two electricians that I know that are willing to share the payscale with me are from Ohio (The union guy) and Georgia (The non-union guy). Neither of these states are the outlying triple wage states. Since they both are reliable workers and good at what they do, I also expect that they will make more money in the future. This idea that 99% of Americans are getting screwed by "The man" is a laugh. Idiots that purchased houses they could not afford lost them. People that borrow all the money they need to go to school and then find out that they have to start at the bottom when entering the job market should not be surprised.

You do understand that most Americans have jobs and work. Unemployment is around 9 to 10 percent depending on where you live. That means that EMPLOYMENT is around 90 to 91 percent. Some people are underemployed. Life's a bitch when you have to support the 10% that don't work at all.

Why are we in this prediciment? I think it is mostly greed. But the greed is not reserved for wealthy wall street bankers. People that overbought houses were greedy. (Wealthy people are not missing payments on their houses as much as poor people) People that buy cheaper items made overseas are greedy. People that don't contribute to charities are greedy. People that don't work and expect to have everything given to them are the greediest of them all.

The message I am getting from OWS is that all our troubles are because there are greedy billionaires. I think that is not what is wrong with this country. God bless any greedy person that can accumulate that much wealth without breaking the law. God bless them even more if they give away some of their money to help really deserving people. Many do. Very few poor people contribute to the ongoing operations of homeless shelters, food pantries and the like. That money comes from people that have earned money and want to share. Should we make people share? No. Do we want them to? Yes. Simply disagreeing with someone does not make them bad, or wrong, or the cause of every bad thing that happens to us.

Deb,

"Most of Americans are under-employed. Assuming anyone is working full-time is a wrong assumption."

Well, I am working full time and all the people at my company are working full time, so your statement is wrong. Do you understand the meaning of the word "Wrong"? "Assuming anyone" (Anyone is one person) "is working full time is a wrong assumption."

If your point was that someone that worked 15 years is the exception to the rule, well, yes, we all understand that experience and worth to a company are rewarded by higher pay. Payscale dot com reports that the average starting salary at McDonalds is $7.56 per hour for their lowest paid jobs. You got me, I said that it was $8.00 per hour. I was off by 44 cents because I also included the people that actually flip the burgers and take orders. If you include them, it is about $8.00 per hour.

PH has debunked your assertation that most of the top 1% inherited their wealth. PH also provided reliable sources.

The two electricians that I know that are willing to share the payscale with me are from Ohio (The union guy) and Georgia (The non-union guy). Neither of these states are the outlying triple wage states. Since they both are reliable workers and good at what they do, I also expect that they will make more money in the future. This idea that 99% of Americans are getting screwed by "The man" is a laugh. Idiots that purchased houses they could not afford lost them. People that borrow all the money they need to go to school and then find out that they have to start at the bottom when entering the job market should not be surprised.

You do understand that most Americans have jobs and work. Unemployment is around 9 to 10 percent depending on where you live. That means that EMPLOYMENT is around 90 to 91 percent. Some people are underemployed. Life's a bitch when you have to support the 10% that don't work at all.

Why are we in this prediciment? I think it is mostly greed. But the greed is not reserved for wealthy wall street bankers. People that overbought houses were greedy. (Wealthy people are not missing payments on their houses as much as poor people) People that buy cheaper items made overseas are greedy. People that don't contribute to charities are greedy. People that don't work and expect to have everything given to them are the greediest of them all.

The message I am getting from OWS is that all our troubles are because there are greedy billionaires. I think that is not what is wrong with this country. God bless any greedy person that can accumulate that much wealth without breaking the law. God bless them even more if they give away some of their money to help really deserving people. Many do. Very few poor people contribute to the ongoing operations of homeless shelters, food pantries and the like. That money comes from people that have earned money and want to share. Should we make people share? No. Do we want them to? Yes. Simply disagreeing with someone does not make them bad, or wrong, or the cause of every bad thing that happens to us.

Crappy duplicating site....

@JC in G - From what I get, you think most Americans work for your company? Since you say because you and those that work for your company are full-time and this makes what I say false?

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The number of persons employed part time for economic reasons
(sometimes referred to as involuntary part-time workers) decreased by
374,000 to 8.9 million in October. These individuals were working part
time because their hours had been cut back or because they were unable
to find a full-time job. (See table A-8.)
In October, 2.6 million persons were marginally attached to the labor
force, about the same as a year earlier. (The data are not seasonally
adjusted.) These individuals were not in the labor force, wanted and
were available for work, and had looked for a job sometime in the
prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed because they had
not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. (See table
A-16.)

Among the marginally attached, there were 967,000 discouraged workers
in October, a decrease of 252,000 from a year earlier. (The data are
not seasonally adjusted.) Discouraged workers are persons not
currently looking for work because they believe no jobs are available
for them. The remaining 1.6 million persons marginally attached to the
labor force in October had not searched for work in the 4 weeks
preceding the survey for reasons such as school attendance or family
responsibilities. (See table A-16.)

Above you will see where they don't count people that were discouraged about getting a job as being unemployed because they didn't apply for a job in the past 4 weeks.

Those working part-time are mostly because they cannot find full-time work.

Your self-righteousness is gagging in it's pure hatred for your fellow man or woman.

From the sites I listed about McDonald's the Managers are the ones that make less than 11 dollars per hour. The regular workers less than 8 dollars per hour. Funny how some of you say you make less than them and brag about it thinking it's a liveable wage for a family or often just for a single person when a place to live would take most of that money before they could even buy food.

I did notice one thing in the Bureau of Labor Statistics, more jobs are coming around. The economy is coming back slowly.

Which I hope everyone has enough food and a warm place to sleep during this winter and I hope most people will be employed full-time soon.

How some of you can scoff at people that have been looking for work and cannot find it...just sickens me.

Hatred and greed is what is killing our Beautiful country.

Dear Deb,

Self-righteousness? Hatred for my fellow man? Where did you get these ideas? You have no idea what I have done for my fellow man and will continue to do. Why are you attacking me personally? Because I see the world a different way then you do? You see 10, 20, 30 percent unemployment and I see 70, 80 90 percent employment. You say that no one is working full time and I point out that you are wrong and give a small example that some people are; to prove the "No One" aspect of your comment is wrong. I give you credit when you are correct, some people at McDonalds make less than $8.00 per hour. (Kinda why I used the word "about" when I said 8 dollars the first time. My friends that are electricians may be on the high end of the averages. You made the point that most of the 1% inherited their wealth; when called out on this, you responded with a statistic for the top 10 wealthiest. The top 10 is not the 3 million in the top 1%. As a matter of fact, the top 3 of the top 10 are self made. I am all for free speech as you are. I served my country for 6 years to defend that right for both me and you. My concern is the misinformation that you state as if they were facts. OK, I was off a little on my observations: Average Electricians don't make as much as my two friends. You are correct there. I was wrong. I would like to say that you are a great patriot or a great American, but I don't know you that well. For that reason, I also would not say that you are a bad American or unpatriotic.

By the way, I still don't understand your first statement that I questioned you about. I have addressed all your accuasations and admitted when I was wrong. Can you do the same?

Deb, I agree with your 10.35 post 100%. I don't like people that scoff at people looking for work; however, I don't hate them. As you said, hate and greed are bad.

JC and Deborah: Good discussions back and forth. I have to agree with JC overall.

Deborah I do appreciate that you want to see the good in the OWS crowd. I think that many of them do believe that what they are doing is right. However, those increased regulations on the corporations would come at the expense of bigger government, more taxes to support it, more corruption by the politicians who control the purse strings (case in point, the millions in bonus money to Fannie and Freddie). The government should not be involved to that extent in private industry. If the corporations are legally not paying taxes, then the tax loopholes need to be closed. If they are not paying a decent wage, no one is forcing anyone to work there. Go work someplace else, don't buy their products, start your own business and pay your employees more....alot of choices.

I pay my work force what I can to do the work I need done. I cannot pay a champagne salary on a beer service. That is not how a business is run. At least not a business that plans on being around for the long term.

Those corporations are not keeping anyone, I repeat, anyone from reaching their potential in our country. The only thing holding them back is themselves and the attitude that they deserve something in this life that the rest of us must give them.

Psst. Look at a calendar. The Cold War has been over for twenty years. Some people can only live in the past.

They clearly are not even 1 percent. Even the kid from WI that didn't bother to notify his parents when he left his school in Neb to go to NYC and sleep on the ground, that the OWS was much smaller than he thought.

This has been all media hype from the get-go.

If the OWS really wanted to make a difference they would push Washington and both parties to have TERM LIMITS. That is where the ONLY change will be made. I notice that Washington is not on their radar and that is because the unions have taken over OWS and do not want to bother Obama fearing going to Washington would put the spotlight where it belonged.

theboys is not paying attention.

OWS have occupied DC, protested congress and the president.

Term limits are incompatible with the rules of the US Senate, where committee's are assigned largely on the basis of seniority.

GETTING THE MONEY OUT OF AMERICAN POLITICS is the only long term solution. Elections should be conducted the way they are in the worlds LEAST corrupt governments like New Zealand.

Theboys would do well to watch the news in the coming days...

December 5th begins the Occupy Congress action... tens of thousands expected to participate...

December 12th marks occupy the ports - if it even closes one port, you are talking a couple of thousand protesters. The goal is to close all ports.

The movement will continue to grow as long as campaign finance reform is ignored.

@The Boys You are looking very well if you haven't seen the Occupy movement in Washington. They have been there for some time and have even marched from Wall Street to Washington I repeat WALKED all the way to Washington DC from Wall Street. You keep talking like they are lazy, but I doubt you would walk as far for any reason.

You complainers keep saying they are lazy, but living outside during freezing cold temperatures isn't something done lightly. Walking around with signs isn't either. Marching from the parks to the government centers, etc. Not easy, lazy things to do. I doubt any of you have ever camped out for more than one night and never in cold weather. Most the things you complain about you contradict in your next statement about them.

And to whomever mentioned someone asking for handouts...that's been going on since before the Occupy movement was even thought of. I could find you many articles on that fact going back decades or more.

Posted by Dan 4259216:

theboys is not paying attention.

OWS have occupied DC, protested congress and the president.

Term limits are incompatible with the rules of the US Senate, where committee's are assigned largely on the basis of seniority.

GETTING THE MONEY OUT OF AMERICAN POLITICS is the only long term solution. Elections should be conducted the way they are in the worlds LEAST corrupt governments like New Zealand.

Gerald is right! International corporations are the worlds benevolent benefactors.

When people start to insist on transparency in financial contracts - LOOK OUT!

If the public knew what the world financial institutions were doing there would be PANIC!

We need to go back to the birth certificate issue. Only accepting the derivative pyramid scheme can postpone its demise.

Lets leave that to the future.

awesomesh is right!

If you don't like the way international corporations run our government move to France, Germany or New Zealand.

The era of human rights is over in this country. This is the era of the international corporations.

True Americans welcome our benevolent true and only Gods (corporations) , who have come to drive out the false "god" of the bible.

We know that maximum profit belong to those savvy enough to exploit the uneducated, foolish and ignorant. That is what makes America great!

@awesomesh

1. Maybe the size of the road isn't large enough for the size of the group? Or the police are pushing them off the sidewalks so there is no other place to stand? Watch videos if you don't believe me. Maybe their homes were foreclosed when they might have been ill for a while or they lost their jobs and the banks wouldn't work out a deal for lesser payments during their hard times? They have no homes to go home too. Read about the record number of foreclosures just this year, not counting last year or the year before that or so on. There are many houses in my neighborhood that are for sale or foreclosed on and boarded up. I think a house lived in is better for resale value than a boarded up foreclosed house...don't you?

2. Freedom of Speech is an American right and if you don't like it...I believe it is you that should leave this country. It's not a fashion statement to work within the rules and have non-violent protests. Most violence has been by the police officers, not the protesters.

awsomesh, Perhaps you should spend more time learning the English language.

The good thing about this country is we have news outlets and The Morale Police to tell us what to think about something before we already know what it is. I'm so glad to be in a country that lets you be so free you don't even need to use your own brain to make decisions for yourself. I'm waiting for the day when we have Government Nannies, I am sick of whipping my own ass so why not just let them do it for me?

You weren't around in the sixties, We got a lot done protesting. We are going to get a lot done this time too and it will cost America a lot of money before the Scoundrels and Thieves in Washington start to listen to us.

If you think OWS are hippies, your in for a surprise.

yes because that has worked so well so far.

Yeah, Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow are credible news sources...

Fearful Republicans and TPers would sell their children to get rid of an idea whose time has come, an idea and an ideal like Occupy.

And what ideas and ideals would you be referring too? Robbery, rape, drug use or violence against police?

Posted on the liberal Daily Kos.

Public Polling Policy:

Q. Do you support or oppose the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement?

Support: 33 (35)
Oppose: 45 (36)
Not sure: 22 (29)

Q. Do you have a higher opinion of the Occupy Wall Street movement or the Tea Party movement?

Occupy Wall Street: 37 (40)
Tea Party: 43 (37)
Not sure: 20 (23)

Looks like you've lost the support of the American people, once they realized what your true intentions were. Anarchy.

I love the laughable argument you liberals make. That because we have a differing view point and ideology than you, we're the ignorant ones.

You know what really makes your argument laughable?

When you simpleton's invoke Fox News.

Landoran, it is surely nice to have people like you who are so hasty to point out the flaws in a given situation, but can't even find their own ass to help solve the problem. Do you know how incredibly simple it is to rig an Internet survey? Take a look for yourself on the streets and any half wit can see something is wrong with this countries policies. Psy-Ops has done you, and many alike you proud.

Steve,

It's funny when people like you don't like what a polls says, it's doctored.

But when it supports your position, it's inarguable proof.

You're laughable and I'm laughing at you.

Landoran,

You seem to think that OWS is all liberals and lefties. Why do you believe that? Who gave you that impression?

As for your poll numbers, you have no other snap shots of opinion to reference. How can you say support is falling? I believe it is in fact, going up...

@Landoran Where was that Poll listed for people to vote? Could it have been on the Fox news site?

I own my house and have never been asked how I feel about the Occupy movement on any credible website or over the phone or any system. If they asked me, I would say I support them for their ideals to change the wrongs and make things better for my future grandchildren.

There is a study/report... that does show that people that watch Fox news know less about the world around them than people that don't watch the news at all. How could that be? *sarcasm* Could it be because of all the false information spread? I think so.

There have even been news stories about how people like the Koch Brothers are buying up ads to misquote or take out of context information about any Democrat. Of course, there are groups doing it against Republicans too. But the issue is that you should believe everything you read in the news media. You should dig a little deeper. Many of the Occupy protesters have live streaming videos of what is actually going on. Many take baths often. The dirty ones they show are probably the homeless that move in to the groups for the free food. They have supporters that let them come and clean up if they don't have homes in the area for actual protesters. Talking of about getting jobs when there are 4 people looking for jobs for every job out there is a bit insane. Unless you plan to hire people yourself. Make new jobs for them to get and they will get a job.

I could almost, support what the OWS is trying achieve, if it hadn't been started by Kalle Lasn, a Canadanian.

Who by the way is an anti-consumerist.

Why I dont support them is their methodology.

OWS and supporters all talk about how corrupt our politicians and government is.And it's not jus tone party either, like some would want you to believe.

Term limits? I have a news flash for you, there already are term limits for ALL politicians, 2, 4 and 6 years. But the problem is, either NOT voting, then complain about how bad everything is, or vote along party lines, and complain about how bad everything is. This country has become so reliant on the government to do everything. We have become an APATHETIC nation.

All you supporters tout at everyone else about thinking for ourselves, how about you start doing the same thing?

Don't like Washington the way it is, then VOTE. If you don't vote, then you have no voice in how the government is.

As far as people criticizing Fox news, they must be doing their job, to get so much attention.

Peace

I watch FOX and can beleive what i hear or not. You see these othr news casters want you to beleive there crapt. RIGHT. You can say what you want about FOX but they'er the best and you know that its because they report the truth you can't stand that.

@tea If it wasn't an independent study from a university that did the study proving that Fox news watchers know less than those that don't watch the news at all...I might agree with you.

Most of the protesters are just of the age to vote and they will, but until they have the chance...they want all the voters to know what is wrong and what needs to be fixed before we all vote again.

People thought the Tea Party made sense, but then they went extremist and lost most of the people's attention. The Occupy movement will end as all protests do, but they are still strong at the moment. Then might not all be out there on the streets or in the parks, but are meeting in homes or buildings planning how to best get the message out next.

I agree until the Occupy movement and some of the Tea Party movement....we as citizens became complacent and either didn't vote or didn't really look at who we were voting for. The movements have awakened the voters eyes and I hope...hope that it will make a difference at the next election.

I find more accurate information posted on youtube than most news medias. Live action not cut and pasted information. A lot of the news stories are cut up to make the point of the newscaster that day. If you watch actual footage not cut up and by more than one angle...cell phones, computers, video cameras, etc... by real people posting what they really saw. That is how you often find out the truth.

So is jailing people for doing absolutely nothing but standing there.

Obstruction, trespassing, indecsent exposure, public defecation, these things are illegal.....except maybe in San Francisco..

The Federal Reserve is also a direct violation of The Constitution. Do you need a link below to know what a constitution is, or are you going to keep pretending that the protesters are the real criminals?

So is jailing people for doing absolutely nothing but standing there.

So does this mean I get to stand on the sidewalk in front of your house with 5 of my friends for 2 months straight, while we watch you and your family come and go?

It's creepy yeah, but hey, we're just standing there.

Don't call the cops, because you'll be infringing on my rights to assemble.

The protesters are committing crimes. I know what the Constitution is. It's that document that the OWS people want to replace with a democratic socialist doctrine..

Landoran

The paparazzi already does that to celebrities etc. So why is it ok for them to do it, and not OWS? You can come up with your clever metaphors all day long and I can give them right back.

Actually, the police should be using their night sticks. They are a renewable resource that can be used over and over again and are better for the environment. Also, if an officer breaks a night stick on a protester, that person should be charged with destruction of property and be required to pay restitution.

You can come up with your clever metaphors all day long and I can give them right back.

If the paparazzi all huddled together in front of someones house for 2 months straight, the police would either disperse them or arrest them for any numerous charges, just to get them to go away.

If 6 people just stood in front of your house, you would have called the cops 8 hours into day 1.

My metaphors are clever, too bad you're not.

Would these people in front of my house be the ones I robbed, raped, and destroyed systematiclly while still demanding the shirt off their back? Maybe they just needed a place to survive since I left them for dead? , am I inside your head yet?

I will donate to those who the police arrest. I will pay for the lawyers to prosecute any officer who abuses people under the color of authority. That is what I will support the people, not the authorities.

Don't worry Keith. It is just...about....done.

Moneyos1 was seen spewing;

Obstruction, trespassing, indecsent exposure, public defecation, these things are illegal.....except maybe in San Francisco..

Obstruction of what? Exercising the right of peaceful assembly?

Trespassing on PUBLIC property? says who?

As for your rather ridiculous claims of indecent exposure and public defecation, bring on the proof.

No one is attacking your right to protest, just the crime that OWS brings with it..

Hey JJKK, I'm middle class and getting ready to retire, not in my seventies or eighties, still in my sixties and retiring according to MY plan after living beneath my means for years. No mcmansion, no credit card debt, no new electronic gadgets, no brand new cars, etc. etc. I never tried to keep up with or surpass what my neighbors did and as a result while they are all whining about the greed and losing jobs and maybe losing their houses, I'm sitting on savings. Again, the ant and the grasshoppers. I am able to do that because of greed. My greed to achieve my own financial security instead of having someone else do it or whine about the government.

Obviously the right to protest has been attacked.

The "crime" in question has been the protest itself, hence the arrest of protesters who are peaceful.

Hog Lover,

I think it's awesome that the economic collapse didn't affect you. It's a shame that it did affect millions of others, to the point that 20% of the nation's wealth evaporated overnight. The price of housing continues to fall. millions of jobs were lost.

Try to remember that many innocent Americans worked hard to build up their nest eggs only to watch them evaporate because of the actions of others. Many lost their homes after losing jobs that they have held for 10-15 years.

While it's great that you weren't affected, many were and the author's point about potential retirees having to continue working is a reality, whether it happened to you or not.

@HOG Lover. I am happy for you. My father still works after retiring from his job. He works part time to be sure he can keep his house and other things. He like to have Thanksgiving at his house. He probably doesn't have to work, but is worried about the state of our country now and continues to work.

I do hope you never have any large medical expenses either. I used to work for an Insurance company and I know how many medical issues get denied or are under covered. I wish you luck in staying healthy and keeping your savings and enjoying your retirement. *smiles*

You are one of the lucky few.

The OWS group needs to re-group in a different manner... I think most Americans hear what the 99% are trying to say... Now, that they have our attention, they need to be more to the point of what needs changing... Who to go after. What bankers need to go tho jail. What companies are stealing from the tax payer... Just what politician, no matter what party is in it for the money and not to serve the better interest of the country...

When a police officer tells you to move and you refuse, then you're asking him to please spray you with pepper spray. Cops never spray me because I understand the process to enact change if I dont like the way things are. The founding fathers put into place procedures for changing things and they work..

moneyos1 - You haven't been paying attention. We have had a lot of elections in the past 40 years and the Congress keeps selling our inheritance to the highest bidders. We are still going to war for corporate interest and the ones who benefit the most from this arrangement of fascist rule don't pay enough taxes to support the wars and the Social Security system. Their solution is to cut Social Security and keep fighting wars.

I dont' know how you find your way to your front door in the morning knowing so little of where you live and who is governoing you. Unless you are one of the 10%, you dont' have to be smart to be rich.

War for corporate interest? What does that mean? Do you think we invaded Iraq for the oil? If we did, then why is gas still above $3 a gallon? Wars aren't the cause of our economic problems. It's social programs and out of control domestic spending. Are you one of those people that believes that Obamas Jobs Bill will create jobs? Are you one of those people that believes that government spending will create jobs? I can find the front door in the morning because I use it to go to work every day so I can be one of the 10% (income over $50k).

money - we have been fighting for corporate interest for over one hundred years. Your gas is still over 3 bucks a gallon because your congressman doesn't give a rats a$$ how much you pay for gas. If we didn't have the wars to pay for we could provide Universal health care and social security for over fifty years without any increase in taxes. If we cut our military budget by 75% we would still have the largest military in the world. That should be big enough. government can't create jobs but they could nationalize the banks and start lending money again and the economy would take off. I see why you are confused, you think a 50K dollar per year job is a good job. Craftsmen, carpenters, pipe fitters and welders should be making 50K a year if wages would have kept up with inflation for the last 25 years. But instead the Banksters and the CEO's have made sure the working class didn't get any of the money for the increases in production and your Congress is culpable and complicit in making the average American a pauper.

We invaded Iraq for oil and commerce. We just finished allying ourselves with AlQueda in order to keep China and Russia from getting the oil contracts in Libya. We have toppled Democratic governments for oil, Bananas, opium, gold, silver, Gambling houses and organized crime. America has spread Death and destruction all across the globe for money and we are still doing it.

Here is what the one of our Generals had to say on that topic.

Major General Smedley Butler (USMC) fought in WWI, Haiti, Nicaragua, Mexico and Cuba in the early part of the 1900's. He received the Congressional Medal of Honor twice, as well as many other decorations. Here is a speech he gave to the American Legion convention in 1933:

Smedley Butler on Interventionism

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the
majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag. I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket. There isn't
a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent
thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big
Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained
in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long.

I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where
have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Some people can't be convinced but all this is true so figure it out for yourself.

JJKK, you are naive. There has always been crime, there will always be crime. When it becomes bad enough to attract a lot of attention it will be reduced, people will pay for their crimes. It will never go away. Our system will deal with it better than any other. But it will never go away.

Moneyos1 was recently spotted spewing this;

The founding fathers put into place procedures for changing things and they work..

You are right, it's called PEACEFUL ASSEMBLY

Ok, I guess I stand corrected. Since our country has some issues and things aren't as fair as they should be, we have to abandon our representative republic and enact a democratic socialist system. There's just no other way. I just hope there is a government system in place that allows me to upsize my house and get me a luxury sports car. Not like a Ferrari or anything like that, a BMW would be fine..

@HOG Lover look at history. Most changed didn't come until after people stood up for their rights in this country. The Occupy protesters are doing what we have done since the beginning of our country. They are standing up for their rights. There right to Freedom of Speech, their right to peaceful assembly, their right to talk about what is wrong with things now and hope to get people to see the errors and correct them.

Are you trying to deny them the rights you have always had?

They are just following in the footsteps of our countries history. Are you saying that our history is wrong? Changed comes from those brave enough to stand up for what is right and not what is convenient. I support their rights. I might not be joining them in the parks or streets, but they have my support.

Deborah, did you defend and support the rights of the Tea Partiers as enthusiastically as you do the OWS folks? They were protesting an out of control govt...just "following in the footsteps of our country's history"

Why did this comment end up on a article about OWS?

Because he's lost and can't find his head...

They're not mentally ill. They're just victims of our education system...

I agree they are not mentally ill and they certainly are victims of our education - an education system built upon the corruption of a political system that sold its soul to corr4upt unions simply to have accesss to union coffers for campaign funds. Not happy with the education and the product thery produce then remove every democratic party elected representative from local, state and federal offices.

There should really be restrictions on letting 3rd graders comment here...

See? Our education system...

I think this bleeding heart Conservative will keep supporting them, I'm hoping they can get something done.

Not liberal; not conservative --just people fed up with what's wrong with the present situation. It would be nice if they could force change, but it is enough, --and I'm glad they are doing it-- to bring attention to to the issue.

Bear-3157678 liked paying for the international banks pyramid schemes!

Bear will LOVE what happens when the derivatives market collapses!

Bear will blame liberals and the media, bear might want to ask some questions before bear continues worshiping the corporate gods.

If order is all you demand, that's easy. Just continue treading your rights for your security. See what the benevolent corporations have in mind.

Keep it up OWS, I can't stand the banker Obama and I believe in a true Capitalistic society! True Conservatism may come out in America due to your true patriotism; people are finding out that the left right whores are only working for the bankers or just plain too arrogant to get off of a track from a run away train!